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Can Anyone Id This Lathe?

tfleming

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#31
Thanks James, I gave Martin gear a call, and found a borable gear the right size. 4.116 diameter, 12 DP, 48 teeth. Now, what I need to determine is the pressure angle I want to use. The gear train is worn enough that I don't think I will get a good measurement to do the math on the angle. I was going to just go with a 14.5 pressure angle with the thinking being that the steeper tooth would take up some of the wear better. Any thoughts there?
 
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omni_dilletante

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#32
My 1935 Brown & Sharpe catalog does not list anything other than 14.5 degree hobs or cutters for spur gears.

Most of the discussion on pressure angle seems to be academic to me as I have only seen 14.5 degree DP gears and 20 degree Metric.

Did Martin Gear give you an option for anything other than 14.5 degrees?
 

tfleming

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#33
yup, they offer that gear in a 20 degree as well. Well, there is a bit of engineering academia involved in the pressure angle selection. 14.5 has been the base standard for years. However, the 20 degree offering does provide a quieter running interface between the gears, but it is a weaker tooth design. 20 degrees is also a better choice for smaller gears at times. I found some very interesting info on pressure angle selections for spur gear teeth, that included pressure chromatic spectroscopy showing in color the different stress distribution patterns on the spur gear teeth for 14.5, 20, and 30 degree pressure angles.

Short answer is, 14.5 degree pressure angle gives the strongest tooth in a high torque environment. Where torque is not a big factor, the 20 and 30 degree pressure angle will run much smoother. That is the conclusion I drew from the engineering papers I looked up.

If you are interested, go here for the pressure chromatic info: http://www.ijarse.com/images/fullpdf/1425984847_400.pdf
 
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MrFixIt

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#34
As old as it is it has to be 14.5, I'd just stick with that if it were me; even more so if it's a stronger gear.
 

tfleming

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#35
Well, the cleaning process has begun. Items so far to repair. Cut new keyway in tailstock screw, increase from 1/8" to 3/16" keyway to cleanup wear and slop between the screw and handwheel. As far as the headstock spindle gear, I have decided to cut my own. I have ordered the necessary tooling, and a dividing head for my Atlas mill. Now I need to decide whether or not to use type 40 Cast iron, or ductile iron for the gear. type 40 is cheaper, but appears to be a wee bit more brittle. I can also buy the type 40 by the inch vs. the ductile in 6" pieces. The ductile iron is probably best, but I don't think it is a crisis using either. Comments are definitely welcome. Tailstock cleaned up very nicely, and compound is shaping up decently as well. Next I will disassemble the apron. Pictures soon.
 

Glenn Brooks

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#36
Man it's fantastic these old machines show up now and then and people can put them back into working order. Nothing like that ever seems to turn up out here on the left coast. Keep us posted!

How badly are the ways worn? Something to think about maybe, is having the ways ground flat. I recently talked to a shop in Chicago that quoted a precision grinding job at around $600. (Also a couple in California with similar pricing). Which I thought was not a bad price price for a 48" lathe bed. They claimed flatness to less than .0005" variation with their CNC controlled grinders. I know there is a lot more to it than just grinding the ways flat, but might be a reasonable intermediate step in restoring the machine - if the ways show significant wear.

Glenn
 

tfleming

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#37
I have not totally cleaned up the ways yet. So far, they look reasonably good. A couple of nicks in them here and there, but overall, they don't look too bad. I won't know for sure until I get the apron cleaned up and re-installed. To be honest, the apron "wings" that ride on the ways are close to 18" long. If the ways are worn, it surely would take a lot of hours to get there the way the apron is designed. however, that is conjecture on my part, not measured fact. I probably won't be to a point to do any indicator work on the ways until after xmas. However, who knows......as I said, I will keep this group updated and pictures as I can. I can tell you this much. The scrape pattern is still visible on the bottom of the tailstock, and in the dovetails of the sliding portion of the tailstock. That is a good sign..........
 

Glenn Brooks

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#38
Holly smokes, if you've still got scraping visible, after all these years, then maybe a real diamond in the rough. It's certainly possible. I bought a 1925 SB 9 x48 last summer with flaking clearly visible all along the bed. Never was used more than a few hours here and there by a hobby owner until it went into storage back in the 40's.

Here is something you could try to explore bed wear. Just lay a 48" aluminium carpenters ruler on the bed and see if you can slide a feeler gauge underneath anywhere along the bed. If any serious wear exists you will likly find it with one of the gauges. Also can shine a flashlight on the backside and look for the thin shaft of light showing possible bed wear, or lack thereof. Not scientific, but it works.
 
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4gsr

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#39
.....snip..... Now I need to decide whether or not to use type 40 Cast iron, or ductile iron for the gear. type 40 is cheaper, but appears to be a wee bit more brittle. I can also buy the type 40 by the inch vs. the ductile in 6" pieces. ....snip......
I have plenty of G-2 Durabar class 40 cast iron. If you are interested in a piece, PM me and I'll be glad to put a piece in the mail for a very small price. I can get ductile iron too, just don't have it on hand at the moment. Ken
 

4gsr

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#40
Most of the older lathes like yours, the gears in the gear train were probably of cast iron back then. Most of the lathe builders went to a mild steel or very low alloy steel by the late 1920's early 1930's. And most were 14-1/2 deg. pressure angle.
 

Silverbullet

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#41
About the 1 HP motor, remember that motor is going thru a gear box , those gears will help it to keep turning as well as any overhead line shaft which ran a whole shop. If it were direct to the lathe I'd say YUPP you need a ten HP to run the lathe. There's a couple of that style LATHES in the three to eight hundred range now near NJ . Even some nice mills, a Rockford for $350. I found a Nichols mill for $50.00 but I'm unable to go get them. Couple nice horizontal mills with the vertical head $900.00. .. Back to this lathe looks good in the picture I bet she turns out to not need very much to get her cutting chips. Wash down the head bearings if the old oil or sometimes grease . Plus it will flush out any debree . I almost had one about a year ago it was in central Jersey , but no room for it ..good luck I'm glad you saved her.
 

tfleming

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#42
Just a quick update. I am gathering the cutter and stock material for making the one gear. I have the tailstock and cross slide cleaned up and ready to use. Next, I am going to disassemble the apron, do the normal cleaning and repairs as necessary........then on to the headstock. This has Babbitt bearings, and at first glance, it appears that the bearing shims are not there. Will know more when I get the bearing caps off. The holidays have put a damper on my work on this, but there is no pressing timeline. I hope to get some pictures soon.
 

tfleming

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#43
a little update on the Large and Shapely :wink:
I found the same lathe out in Colorado that was basically a parts machine. I purchased a 12" 3 jaw chuck and the taper attachment from the parts lathe. All good. I also just purchased the complete headstock (with all the gears, including the one I need), plus the full apron assembly, the threading gear box, and lastly the legs. My intent was to use the best parts from both lathes to make 1 good one (plus having some spare parts). I have started to clean up all the tooling and parts, and so far, I am really pleased with the condition of what I have cleaned up so far. what I am not looking forward to is buying a CXA or larger quick change tool holder (ouch!). I am hoping by March or April to make my first chips. I'll try to get some pictures posted over the next 1-2 days

I am really excited to get this old girl running. I love to resurrect and use old machinery! Old School I believe is the term!
 

4gsr

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#44
This was not uncommon back not too many years ago. I recall my dad talking about taking old 4A Warner Swasays and using one for a parts machine to keep the others running or rebuild one from two machines. At one time they got so cheap to buy from Government auctions, this is how they did it. They did it to Lodge & Shipley's and certain LeBlonde lathes too.
 

tfleming

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#45
A short update on the progress. The taper attachment, cross feed, tool holder, and apron top are now cleaned, oiled, and rough adjusted. I continue to debate on whether or not to leave the old girl in her work clothes (after appropriate cleaning) or to take her to bare casting and give her a proper paint job. So far, I have not found any serious problems, breakage or wear. Time will tell after I get her back together and can get a dial indicator on her. Here is a picture of the excellent condition of the taper attachment way:



The gearing and half-nuts in the apron gear train are in surprisingly good shape. Only 1 of the idler bushings is worn, but that is an easy repair. I have the next batch of parts from the "donor" lathe on the way, so before I get too busy I'll see if the donor apron has usable bushings. I'll try to get some pics of the apron top and cross slide. The oil and grease are amazing on this thing. I think they used Steam boiler oil on her, sticky as all get out, dark brown, and smells BAD! LOL.
 

tfleming

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#46
Well, I have made the decision that the Large and Shapely is goona get a full facelift. Yes, high pressure steam clean right down to the bare metal. Then, a right proper coat of machine gray, with black highlights on the lettering. Polished brass badges, and gloss black wheels and handles. Here is the first installment:



A wee bit closer:



A little hard to tell, but the " L&S" on the handwheel stands out nicely in person. This is gloss black power coat. I'll paint the main part of the lathe, but I felt that powder coat was a more durable finish for the hand wheels and levers.
 

jhuston

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#47
I wasn't going to say anything, but I was kinda hoping you'd go all out, considering what an excellent machine a well-kept Large and Shapely is. The handwheels look like a million bucks ( and I'm envious your lathe still has frosting; my Mulliner Enlund is, well, defrosted.
-James Huston
 

Rustrp

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#48
The holidays have put a damper on my work on this, but there is no pressing timeline. I hope to get some pictures soon.
I'm grinning, true signs of addiction. It's good to see you lasted through the holidays (or did you) and managed to continue the restoration.

Every time a read an article on an old Lodge & Shipley I spend another hour looking for the S/N. Most of the articles I have read say the S/N's were stamped on the web of the ways at the tailstock end. No luck so far but I will keep looking. My father-in-law just told me it was turn of the century and I haven't spent much time looking until recently.

It was good that you found a lathe that was being parted out.
 
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Rustrp

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#49
I couldn't open the original photo's. I'm intrested in seeing what the drive train mod stacked on top looks like. My lathe has a bed length of 6' and I'll guess it's a 14" X 30+ depending how a person measures. I've read that L&S opened up the web between the ways to allow the tailstock to be pushed out farther than the bed to get a little more stretch. It has a 1 HP Wagner Electric 110/220 that still works great. I'm either going about measuring the wear on the ways the wrong way or the lathe is in better condition than me.
 

tfleming

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#50
Well guys, I started into the old girl again. Today, she got a 200 degree pressure washer bath. Found a couple of interesting things. First, her serial number is 2841, which according to Vintage Machinery website chart is 1901. Next, she appears to have come from the factory painted black, with white highlights on the lettering. interesting. I also cleaned up the ways, and the old girl has seen some crashes in her life, but overall, the ways don't look too bad. For what I do, keeping around +/- 0.002 - 0.003 is plenty close enough. I am going to try to get a coat of paint on the main body before the weekend is over. Pics soon.
 

4gsr

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#51
Most all machinery came painted black in the 1800's to early 1900's. The gray tones started showing up in the late 1920's early 1930's and later. Nobody says you have to keep the color!
 

tfleming

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#53
Thanks Ken for the comment. I actually will keep her black. I kinda like that. Although, I may go with gold lettering vs. the white.
 

tfleming

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#54
Dlane, if you go to page 1, there are pictures of her about halfway down. RustRP, I'll get a picture posted of the gear train.
 
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jhuston

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#55
You really can't go wrong with a black/gold scheme.
-James Huston
 

tfleming

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#56
Some pictures, more to come:




The bath in progress:





 

tfleming

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#57
BTW, I am not sure what kind of black paint L&S used, but OMG it was like iron on top of iron. Too bad our paints today don't stick like that! I spent over an hour just wire brushing the front of the bed! Paint stripper barely even touched it. What a pita, but she will look good. I have also decided to go with a 2-tone paint job. Lathe bed and headstock: black. Apron, cross slide, tailstock, and any other items: machine grey. I am still debating between gold and red highlighting on the raised letters on the bed. Some may not "like" the 2-tone approach, but it just seems like it will look really nice. Base structure: black Movable parts: grey. Nice contrast in my book.
 

DaveInMi

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#58
I had a flat belt lathe of that vintage with ways well worn. It was 12" swing. Seldom were the worn ways a true problem because for a hobbyist most jobs need to be precise over a short distance. I didn't have trouble with the flat belt and I considered it a slip clutch if something did go wrong. It looks worth more than what you paid even if ways are worn. You can braze a tooth where one is missing and file to shape. Turn outside diameter true. Using layout dye roll your new tooth with mating gear and file off the high spots. Continue until you have a tooth of the right shape. I could hear that gear but it ran flawlessly for years. If time is money then buying and modifying may be a better choice.
 
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Bob Korves

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#59
BTW, I am not sure what kind of black paint L&S used, but OMG it was like iron on top of iron. Too bad our paints today don't stick like that! I spent over an hour just wire brushing the front of the bed! Paint stripper barely even touched it. What a pita, but she will look good. I have also decided to go with a 2-tone paint job. Lathe bed and headstock: black. Apron, cross slide, tailstock, and any other items: machine grey. I am still debating between gold and red highlighting on the raised letters on the bed. Some may not "like" the 2-tone approach, but it just seems like it will look really nice. Base structure: black Movable parts: grey. Nice contrast in my book.
Not at all sure, but I think some of those old paints were based on tar. You are correct, it really sticks and does not want to come off. If you really want to get it off, you might try a petroleum based solvent like kerosene. I think I would research it and try to replicate the original finish. She ain't a hot rod, she's an antique classic...
 

4gsr

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#60
Bob is right, they used to use a tar based paint, "lamp black" they used to call it. Kerosene may cut it, I doubt it. I recall that stuff being impossible to break down. Pretty much left it and painted the bed with my flavor of color at the time. That so called "paint" was also like Bondo and used as a filler, too. You want to be careful cleaning paint off of the old machines. Before the 1950's they used lead based paints on machinery. If you used any of the "good" paint remover that has methochloride, however you spell it and get a 'burnt orange" bleed, it contains lead.
 
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