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Buying a lathe, what tooling should I get/avoid?

mikey

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#32
Ok. So I order an 1127. What do I need to get it ready to make chips? I've never set up a new machine before. Reading up, sounds like after running things a bit for testing, I would be smart to clean it up really well and change the oil.

Can it sit on my bench or does it need to be bolted down? I can get some dead trees in to make a stand too. Might be a fun project while I wait.

I'm looking at the manual for the 1228 as Matt has mentioned they are very similar.

Things to get...

Degreaser to remove the "waxy oil". They recommend against brake cleaners and acetone. Any recommendations?
Fresh oil. Type? ISO 68.. Any recommended brands?
It mentions including an oiler, so I'm probably good there.
Some round stock of the previously mentioned types. 1" diameter?

Remove schmoo
Check oil level
Test and inspect
Clean and oil change, lube the ball oilers
Level and test for taper etc..
Turn perfectly good stock into chips..
Drool over other tooling I'll want later (there's always another tool to drool at)
PM1127vf-lb: a wise decision, Sir.

I should think a solid wood bench, properly designed to not sag, would work fine. Lots of guys use a mobile tool cart as a base and I think this is the way I would go - cart plus a really solid wood top and a 1/4" thick steel plate on top of that. That way you can make leveling adjusters for the lathe and not have to mess with also leveling the base.

Cleaning should be easy. Paint thinner/mineral spirits usually works well. I have not used Naptha as Mark suggested but I have read that it works well, too. White Scotchbrite and WD-40 also works well; this is what I used on my lathe.

At some point, buy a machinist's level to level the lathe. You will need it. There have been many discussions on this subject so read up and make up your own mind on what you need.

Beyond that, you will need a good hydraulic oil for the headstock and other sites and some way oil for the ways and you should be good. Oh, as you clean up the lathe, shoot some oil into every oil port and make sure they are wide open and flow oil well; trust me, you want to do this.
 

British Steel

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#33
I'm going to be Mr Negative - don't buy the cheap Chinese brazed-on carbide tooling, unless you have a SiC wheel to rough it to shape and a diamond lap/wheel/hone to get a good edge, indexable carbide (*positive rake*) tooling's usable out of the box and HSS is easier to grind and get a good edge.
The brazed carbide tools come blunt with the wrong geometry and you'll struggle to get a good finish and a decent cut, particularly the final finish cuts (unless you don't take cuts below about 0.020)

Now for Mr Positive:
I agree with Mikey about the 1127 over the 1030 (although I've had neither, I've worked on another importer's versions of both), a camlock chuck makes life a lot easier (as does a QCTP and a hatful of holders), the 1.5" spindle bore makes setups for long work easier, and the wider the bed the more accurate the lathe will be. "Toolroom" lathes used to be gauged by how much wider the bed ways were than the centre height, both for rigidity of the bed and for the "base of the triangle" when considering cutting forces and the effect of any (necessary) clearances on the positional accuracy of the tool tip.

Dave H. (the other one)
 

bobshobby

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#34
I know there are some similar posts, but I hope you guys will offer suggestions anyway. I have been searching and reading, but getting a little bogged down in it...

I have a pretty hard budget of $3000, including shipping. Items have to be available to purchase from a normal web store. EBay etc is going to cause problems as it's not me doing the actual ordering. I need to be able to supply a simple web link and basic info so they can put in a card and order. The lathe, stand, and shipping come to about $2500. I don't need the best quality, but better than Harbor Freight.

Lathe is PM 1022V/1030V (depending on how long it takes for 1030s to come in)

I know I want a tailstock drill chuck, I'll probably order that from PM with the machine.

PM has some holder and insert sets that look nice. Grizzly has something similar that includes a cutoff/groove tool. I do want to be able to cut slots for snap-rings and o-rings eventually. And parting off is needed.
One thing I would add to what the other guys have said is, and it depends on where you live. Call in and make yourself known to some local machine shops, explain that your just a beginner at a new hobby and ask if they have any bar ends or offcuts that are going in the scrap bin. I've found that about half of them will be quite generous with what they will give you, use this material for practice work. I have found that I rarely ever have to buy material for projects, mostly get it for free or just a couple of $. Good luck.
 

Reeltor

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#35
Depending upon where you will be degreasing your new lathe, Kerosene or Diesel. Use terry/ cotton cloths to remove the schmoo. As for the headstock oil, most older American Iron say to flush out the headstock with Kerosene; I don't know what PM recommends but be sure to flush it first. Then refill with fresh new oil, I use DTE (Mobile) in my machines. Some people recommend using ISO68 hydraulic oil from Tractor Supply or Northern Tool. I don't like that idea, I'm not an oil expert but in my mind a quality circulating oil from Mobile, Exxon, Chevron or the like is far and away better than the generic stuff from a discounter. You can get the oil from Grainger, MSC or any other mail order tooling supplier. Free pickup at Grainger or MSC if one is near to you.
One more recommendation, IF you decide to try carbide, buy a good carbide tool holder and indexable carbides not the brazed on stuff from Harbor Freight. Good luck with your new lathe, you have a very generous employer
 

mksj

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#36
Agree with other's comments and specifically with Mikey/British Steel, that unless one is only making small parts, the 1127 and 1228 are really the only entry level lathes that I would recommend. The other major advantage over other manufacture's lathes in this size class is the D1-4 mount, 1.5" spindle and power feed on the cross slide. I also agree with British Steel that I would start out with purchasing an insert tool holders, CCMT/CCGT 21.5X or 32.5X inserts to get you started (a 21.XX insert fits in a 1/4" circle, 32.XX a 3/8" circle, tool holders are for a specific sized insert and a specific shape). The Shar's set below has other insert styles which are also very useful. A lot less fuss, and once the tooling alignment is set you do not have to realign anything when you change the insert. The inserts come in many types and designs, but I primarily use a CCMT 21.51 or 32.51 coated insert for steel and super alloys, and a CCGT 21.51 or 32.51 uncoated for aluminum and softer alloys. An insert can last me up to 6 months and they can be had for a few bucks. By starting off with insert holders, it is one less learning factor as to figuring out how to turn metals. As you get proficient, you can get into grinding HSS for specific profiles or applications.
I would recommended a different insert holder starter kit, some thing like this one:
http://www.shars.com/products/index...ders/1-2-indexable-carbide-turning-tool-set-1

You can buy a blade parting tool/blade for around $35 (probably with a 1/2" HSS blade), but you will most likely have difficulty parting a 1.5" rod on this this size machine with a 1/2" blade height. You also will not get a square cut because of the blade deflection. There are some shank style cutoff holders that might work, these take GTN-3 inserts. I believe this grooving parting tool holder is in the set above. You would be better off cutting the piece with a saw and then turning the end on the lathe. You can grind HSS blanks for grooving.
http://www.shars.com/universal-parting-blade-tool-holder-7-type-107-axa
http://www.shars.com/products/index...-screw-clamp-deep-grooving-and-cut-off-holder

You will need a number of AXA holders for all the insert holders, best to get 6-8 up front and order with the holders to save on shipping. Although Shar's offeres decent quality tooling at the price level, they tend to be much more expensive when it comes to shipping.
 
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ttabbal

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#37
Thanks for all the info! I had already decided to avoid the brazed carbide, at least for now. I like the idea of the inserts, but does this lathe have the speed to use them properly? I'm sure I'll end up trying some, I tend to like trying out everything and getting a feel for how things work for me. I like that Shars set. A little bit of everything. I've also tried grinding tool models in keystock. I like how they turned out and will be trying HSS as well. Obviously, I haven't tried cutting with them, but so far they look good and are very sharp, even without honing. For cutting tools, I'm avoiding Harbor Freight. They are fine for a lot of stuff, but the forces involved in turning steel make me want a higher level of quality control.

I would never have thought of using fuel for cleaning. I do have mineral spirits, and WD40.. I think I have some Coleman fuel as well, I'll have to try a bit and compare.
 

Bob Korves

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#38
I like the idea of the inserts, but does this lathe have the speed to use them properly?
Slower machines will not be able to use the speed capabilities of carbide inserts, but they can still use the convenience and wearing potential. For achieving a good surface finish at lower speeds, buying sharp positive rake inserts and/or sharpening the carbide inserts might help.
 
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BGHansen

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#39
Not adding anything, just what I started with for tooling and other accessories and what have been added over the years. You'll get the bug and will add more tooling as time goes on. It can get obsessive buying more tools for your tools!

Really nice convenience is a QCTP and a variety of tool holders. I use a lot of carbide inserted tool holders; many options out there but a decent start is the 1/2" triangular sets of 5 different holders for around $30-$40. You'll likely find in actual use you don't use all 5.
HSS cut off T-shaped or double angled sides for parting. The QCTP kits usually include this holder.
Drill chuck for the tail stock and some center drills.
Live center for the tail stock.
Some 3/8" and 1/2" HSS blanks for turning, threading, etc.
Micrometer and/or dial caliper for checking diameters.
Dial indicator and mag base for checking run out (4-jaw set up) and/or checking the Z-position when set to the end of the carriage.
Test indicator for checking run-out also, though a 0-1" will do the same thing.
Center gauge for setting up your threading tool.
Chip brush (and tweezers).
Cutting fluid, I prefer non-sulfur based to keep the stink down.

Some luxury items are a scissor type knurling tool, works soooo much better than the bump style in my experience.
Telescoping gauges for checking bores/inside diameters
DRO
Taper attachment if available.
Collet chuck/collets - collets are great! I have one lathe that's set up with a collet chuck and another with a set-tru 3-jaw chuck. Collets should be very accurate for staying on center if removing work from the lathe for a secondary operation, then returning to the lathe. Plus, they don't mar the surface of your work as easily as a really tight 3-jaw chuck.
Dedicated roll-away for your lathe tooling. Mine has all of the collets, spiders, tool bits, measuring tools, dedicated drill bits, etc. for quick use.
Optivisor for close up looking at work. I wear glasses with bifocals and catch myself peeking over my glasses for a better look. Use a magnifier (not very ofter), but do have a pair of safety glasses on the head stock for protection if peeking over the glasses.
More and more tool holders. I have around 35 on one lathe and 15 on the other. It's really convenient to switch between a triangular bit to a D diamond bit to a W bit, etc. without swapping tools in the tool holders and resetting center.

Some photos attached of my QCTP holders, tail stock tooling set up and HF roll-around tool rack dedicated to the G0709 lathe. Yes, I have gone to excess on a number of things. I'm sure you'll come up with better ways to organize your accumulation with WILL happen once you jump in! Enjoy the adventure!

Bruce

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mksj

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#40
The insert holders in the Shar's set are neutral rake , so do not take a lot of Hp. I usually run my carbide at 1/3-1/2 the recommended SFM, which is for more production machines and flood coolant. I have no problems with surface finish, and my normal cutting RPM is around 500-1200 RPM depending on the stock diameter and material. At the price of that set, you can't go wrong. Better inserts will work better because of profiles, coatings, etc. HSS may produce better finish at much lower speeds and feeds, but given that an insert last me 6+ months under fairly hard use, I just do not want to be playing around with grinding tooling if I do not have too. If a insert does go like when I am threading, I just replace it and do not have to worry about alignment or positioning. YMMV.
 

Cadillac STS

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#41
Keep an eye on your local craigslist for a horizontal bandsaw. You will need to cut stock and that will be useful. If you have a harbor freight nearby their small horizontal bandsaw is decent

Do some searching in your town for places to buy stock. Might take a few phone calls or post your location here for someone who might know and tell you. Want a place that sells small amounts to a hobiest. It is nice to have a place to go browse stock and have some cut for you. Likely way less expensive and no shipping than online ordering.
 

ttabbal

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#42
Good idea on locating stock. I'm in Herriman, Utah. It's near Salt Lake. If anyone knows of any hobbyist friendly shops in the area willing to sell small bits to practice on, please let me know. I know we have a couple vendors around, they generally want to sell full sticks though. Still, might be cheaper than paying shipping.

Nice to know that the HF bandsaw is a decent machine. I was looking at it. I see some pop up from time to time on the local classifieds as well. It's on my todo list. Right now I have an abrasive chop saw, it works alright, but does heat the metal a fair bit.
 

Glenn Brooks

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#44
Might try diesel to clean off the packing grease. I use diesel as a Universal solvent all the time on machine tools with good results. Don't know what protective oil the factory puts on new machines, as never been lucky enuf to have one!

I would check your Manual for proper set up and 'breakin' instructions. Doesn't make sense to me to change the oil if it's never been run. One thing for sure, you should probably level the lathe once you get the machine sitting where you want it, on your shop floor. You will need to take the twist out of the bed to hold consistent cuts along the work. Check out the other threads on leveling. There are some very interesting stories out there.

Have fun with your new machine!

Glenn
 

ttabbal

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#45
What kinda dead trees,
The dead kind... :)

My current thinking is 2x4 and maybe some 4x4. Based on the designs people use for large aquariums. I figure it can hold 2000lbs of water, so it can likely hold the 600lb lathe. Topped with 3/4 ply, maybe laminated with a second layer. A little oversized to give room for tools, workpieces, a vise, etc..

Thanks Glenn. I'm planning to do level and align everything before doing any work on it. I'm going over leveling threads and the manual to get a good idea how to do it right. Fresh oil is mostly just part of the cleaning. Some people have mentioned finding interesting stuff in the gearbox on Chinese machines. Could be shipping, QC, whatever.. Seems like cheap insurance to rinse anything like that out. May not be anything to worry about, but better safe than sorry.
 

David S

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#46
Regarding buying small amounts of metal for the hobbyist. Our local metal recycling guy has quite a selection of raw materials. They don't mind cutting off what ever I want and they will even let me look through the scrap that has been brought in for cut offs etc, and they will sell it to me at scrap prices. They separate all the types of metals, so I am often able to get nice short chunks of brass and aluminum.

David
 

ttabbal

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#47
It's official, the 1127 lathe has been ordered. Backordered, but they expect to get more soon. Let the games begin!
 

ttabbal

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#48
So, I'm looking at oils. I am leaning toward Mobil DTE Heavy Medium (ISO 68) for the gearbox.

I found a good price on Vactra 4, they recommend it for the ways on large machines. Would it be a good idea on this lathe or am I better off picking something else? My thought for it was for the ways and oil fittings. Seems a lot of people like Vactra 2, which is the same viscosity at the DTE I'm already buying. Should I use that?
 

ttabbal

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#50
Sure. I guess my question is, does it cause problems for a smaller machine? It's much higher viscosity, but that seems like it might be a good thing if it's not turning into a solid or something.. Probably harder to pump into the ports... I'll probably just look for the #2, it just got me thinking.
 

Bob Korves

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#51
I don't really know that much about #4 way oil. My 13x40 lathe manual said to use Vactra #2, so I did, and it seems fine, but I have nothing else to compare it to other than oils for different applications.
 

TakeDeadAim

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#52
When I received my mill from Matt I was pleasantly surprised to find all the brown goop usually associated with new machines had been removed. It really took very little cleaning with some Purple Power spray to be ready to use. In speaking with him he un crates the machines, cleans and tests then re=crates for shipment to the end customer. Great customer service.

You will need some way oil, like Mobil Vactra #2, which you can get from McMaster Carr, MSC, where ever you can find it for less. Im not sure what is in the head and carriage on those machines but a phone call to QMT would answer that. Usually a light trans hydraulic oil like the Mobilgear series of oils is used but equivalent products are made by a number of lubricant companies. There is usually a run in period where you spend a bit of time in each speed just letting it run, engaging the feeds etc. Then complete an oil change in the gearboxes, check the drive belts etc.

The lathe must be bolted to a bench or stand, do not over build the stand. Lathes are made to be adjusted to cut straight, this is accomplished by the head and tail of the casting being the supporting structure. If the stand is made too stiff the head and tail of the casting become one solid unit and leveling and dialing in for a true cut over parts in excess of say 6" becomes difficult. If you look at the stands sold for these lathes it is really two cabinets with a piece of sheet metal between. Your design should emulate this.

Quite frankly learning to grind and use HSS tools is a great experience. I do a lot of my work with them because they are rather inexpensive and easy to sharpen. One place I do like carbide insert tooling is for threading and grooving and those tools can be purchased as needed.

Have fun and be sure and post some photos of the arrival and set up. I know Im not the only one who like to see them.
 

TakeDeadAim

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#53
Not adding anything, just what I started with for tooling and other accessories and what have been added over the years. You'll get the bug and will add more tooling as time goes on. It can get obsessive buying more tools for your tools!

Really nice convenience is a QCTP and a variety of tool holders. I use a lot of carbide inserted tool holders; many options out there but a decent start is the 1/2" triangular sets of 5 different holders for around $30-$40. You'll likely find in actual use you don't use all 5.
HSS cut off T-shaped or double angled sides for parting. The QCTP kits usually include this holder.
Drill chuck for the tail stock and some center drills.
Live center for the tail stock.
Some 3/8" and 1/2" HSS blanks for turning, threading, etc.
Micrometer and/or dial caliper for checking diameters.
Dial indicator and mag base for checking run out (4-jaw set up) and/or checking the Z-position when set to the end of the carriage.
Test indicator for checking run-out also, though a 0-1" will do the same thing.
Center gauge for setting up your threading tool.
Chip brush (and tweezers).
Cutting fluid, I prefer non-sulfur based to keep the stink down.

Some luxury items are a scissor type knurling tool, works soooo much better than the bump style in my experience.
Telescoping gauges for checking bores/inside diameters
DRO
Taper attachment if available.
Collet chuck/collets - collets are great! I have one lathe that's set up with a collet chuck and another with a set-tru 3-jaw chuck. Collets should be very accurate for staying on center if removing work from the lathe for a secondary operation, then returning to the lathe. Plus, they don't mar the surface of your work as easily as a really tight 3-jaw chuck.
Dedicated roll-away for your lathe tooling. Mine has all of the collets, spiders, tool bits, measuring tools, dedicated drill bits, etc. for quick use.
Optivisor for close up looking at work. I wear glasses with bifocals and catch myself peeking over my glasses for a better look. Use a magnifier (not very ofter), but do have a pair of safety glasses on the head stock for protection if peeking over the glasses.
More and more tool holders. I have around 35 on one lathe and 15 on the other. It's really convenient to switch between a triangular bit to a D diamond bit to a W bit, etc. without swapping tools in the tool holders and resetting center.

Some photos attached of my QCTP holders, tail stock tooling set up and HF roll-around tool rack dedicated to the G0709 lathe. Yes, I have gone to excess on a number of things. I'm sure you'll come up with better ways to organize your accumulation with WILL happen once you jump in! Enjoy the adventure!

Bruce

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Can I get an enlargement of your QCTP rack. I only have one row and Ive been told its excessive. LOL I like to not have to re set tools and zeros in the DRO
 

ttabbal

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#54
Pricing on Vactra 2 is annoying. Shipped, $50 1 gallon. About $110 for 5 gallons. I don't really want 5 gallons, but sheesh.
 

TakeDeadAim

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#55
McMaster Carr is $28 a gallon, MSC $25.01, I cant imagine shipping being $20 or more. If so see if you have a Mobil Lubricants dealer in Salt Lake, you could get your gear lube and some Vactra at the same time. I get my gear oil, (I run the same thing in all the gearboxes in the shop, and buy that in 5 Gal containers which are expensive to ship. I just called the local guy and asked for an equivalent to the recommended product. I spent the first part of my career in tool repair and rebuilding, believe me we did not stock 20 different lubes, Vactra 2 and 4 and a light and medium trans hydraulic.
 

Z2V

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#56
There is a guy local to me that bought the 5 gal bucket then sold off a few gallons at $20/gal on CL. I got one of them.
 

BGHansen

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#58
Can I get an enlargement of your QCTP rack. I only have one row and Ive been told its excessive. LOL I like to not have to re set tools and zeros in the DRO
Hi TakeDeadAim,

Don't mean to encroach on the OP's thread, but here are some photos of my two lathes. The Grizzly G0709 has the two-tiered rack. Unistrut bolted to the back splash as low as it'd go and up high; maximize the stability. Then I welded up some angle brackets from 3/16" thick by 2" wide steel. It's actually pretty stable, doesn't bounce back and forth (much) when I tug on it hard.

The other set up is for my Clausing #5418. I made a roll-around back splash and attached a length of unistrut to the top tubing with a couple of aluminum blocks.

Tool holders are held in place with 1/8" thick aluminum "L" pieces that bolt to the unistrut and slip into the tool holder dovetail.

I can take anything from my Grizzly and use it on the Clausing without adjusting center. I made up some shims that are the difference in height between the two lathes (have to raise the tool holders on the Clausing from the Grizzly setting). Just grab off the Grizzly rack, drop the tool holder in place on the Clausing and slip the shim under the adjusting wheel, then lock it down.

Bruce

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Bob Korves

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#60
The lathe must be bolted to a bench or stand, do not over build the stand. Lathes are made to be adjusted to cut straight, this is accomplished by the head and tail of the casting being the supporting structure. If the stand is made too stiff the head and tail of the casting become one solid unit and leveling and dialing in for a true cut over parts in excess of say 6" becomes difficult. If you look at the stands sold for these lathes it is really two cabinets with a piece of sheet metal between. Your design should emulate this.
A stand can be rock solid, then the lathe bed itself is used for leveling and adjusting with shims or whatever between lathe and stand.
 
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