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Atlas QC10 purchase (was Request value input on a QC10F TH42)

Discussion in 'ATLAS, CRAFTSMAN & AA' started by rzbill, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Hi All,
    I came across this craigslist advertisement and have made an appointment to go inspect and purchase if satisfactory.

    https://greenville.craigslist.org/tls/6174249367.html

    While my recent focus has been on the similar sized new Chinese lathes, this one appears to me on the surface to be a good value.
    I have spent some time going through the Atlas 10" threads trying to get familiar with the strong and weak points of this model. I have also watched a few of the youtube videos concerning Atlas inspections so I feel comfortable in the ability to root out show stoppers.

    Feel free to look at the advert and give feedback on whether the price appears high,fair or low.

    Lastly, for those folks that have purchased, it appears that I should not need a hoist to get this on my truck? Comments welcome.
     
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  2. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That is probably a good price with the accessories he listed plus a couple of visible ones that he didn't list. Of course, I would probably start off by offering him $1000.

    I don't see any visible bed wear. On the accessories that he listed plus those that he didn't list, you could for calculation purposes assign the following prices if you were to buy them later:

    5" Chuck $100
    6" Chuck $200 (at least - I can't say for certain who made it but it has 2-piece jaws and probably weighs 2-1/2 times what the 5" or 8" do. I bought one in 1982 that looks just like it and gave over $200 back then)
    8" Chuck $100
    Steady Rest $150
    Follow Rest $150
    Carriage Stop $25
    QCTP $150 (depending somewhat on how many tool holders he has for it and which ones they are).

    Total $875
    Balance $325

    The lathe and bench bare is probably worth $500 to $750.

    As far as moving it goes, the shipping weight of a QC42 less motor is given in the Atlas catalogs as 280 pounds. That includes the weight of the countershaft and a few minor accessories but not the motor. And probably includes the weight of the crate. So if you disconnect the belts and remove the 6" chuck (mine weighs 25 pounds) and maybe tailstock or at least run the carriage all the way to the tailstock end, and disconnect the lathe from the bench, you are probably looking at about 125 pounds at the headstock end and 75 at the tailstock.

    And incidentally, although I wouldn't tell the PO, the QCTP is incorrectly mounted on the compound. With the compound set around towards the headstock at 20 degrees, It should be square with the bed and spindle unless you are doing something unusual.
     
  3. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thank you Robert,
    The transaction has been delayed due to travel schedules of me and the seller but unless a problem arrises I expect to have it in the next few weeks.
    I have been scouring this board to make use of the extra time to learn more about the lathe.
    Interesting reading.
     
  4. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK. That's one of the major reasons that the board is here. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  5. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    July 1st, 2017 update.
    I obtained the advertised lathe this past weekend. While it looked as good as the advertisement when there in real life, I am still taking it apart, cleaning and reassembling so that I know the status of the lathe.

    I finished going through the carriage, cross, and compound last night.
    Glad I did. While the vast majority of parts are in great condition, everything was out of adjustment.
    There are a couple of gears on the apron I will need to replace in the near future.

    Here's a couple of pics of unloading and the "extras" spread out on my bench.

    Did not have an engine hoist so I had to improvise.

    The welded table came with the deal. Solvent soaked and pressure washed.

    BTW, It was running when I got it. Just disassembled for transport.
     

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  6. pdentrem

    pdentrem Active User Active Member

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    I think you are in great shape with a very complete setup!
    Pierre
     
  7. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You will want to buy several more #1 (#101) Turning & Facing and a couple more of #2 (#102) Turning, Facing & Boring took holders.
     
  8. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks Robert,
    I will dig into that part soon.
    Working on the horizontal drive system today. Some has been a challenge to get apart. Had to use a gear puller in a couple of places that originally slid together by hand. Makes me rue the day that cup pointed set screws were invented.
    On the positive side, I was rewarded with pulley shaft needle bearings that look great. Still shiny and the shaft is still good on diameter.
    Pics are of the backgear assy and horizontal belt drive after I finished with them. Gratuitous pic of the carriage from yesterday too.

    I may not be able to help much with your serial number/construction date list. The PO indicated that the QCGB was added and the bed was swapped out. Since the bed has the name plate, its number does not relate to the rest of my machine. The ways are 3/8". Lastly, the PO said the Timken bearings were replaced so the dates on those won't be useful.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  9. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK. Did the PO say that it was originally a TH42 or is that what's on the nameplate? If it has a nameplate, ask the PO whether the nameplate came on the bed or was shifted over from the previous bed. Depending upon what the serial number is, there is a small chance that it might be useful.

    It appears that either Atlas or Timken (whomever it was putting the dates on) stopped doing that sometime in the early 1950's. So in all probability, it doesn't have any bearing dates anyway.

    That QCTP looks like a Yuasa. I bought one in 1981 or 82 about a month after I bought my 3996. It is still going strong 36 years on. It is a piston type but unlike the current crop of Chinese made ones, it is larger and rectangular. I have never felt that it didn't work just as well as the Chinese wedge types.

    The Z-shaped bracket on the countershaft isn't original. What does it do?
     
  10. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    The original bed was longer. I think the PO said 54" so my current assumption is that this was constructed as a 10F-TH54 and the QCGB added later.
    I do not have the lathe fully bolted down yet so I may be able to get the head casting number.

    In regards to the 'Z' bracket, it is part of a sheet metal belt cover that is partly visible on my bench behind the countershaft system in images 6-2-17D and 6-3-17C previously posted.

    There is another 'custom' part. The cross slide has a sheet metal cover that is longer than the original cast units (that I have),

    The QCTP has the name Phase II on it. I have not seen many references to this brand vs the other economy holders. I'll do some searching.
     
  11. schor

    schor Canada Active Member Active Member

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    I think you got a great score there with all the accessories.
     
  12. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Yes, I agree.

    Bill, I think that I recall now that the Chinese company using the Phase II trade name bought the QCTP design from Yuasa. Yuasa is still in business but apparently no longer make tool holding systems. But if Phase II made an accurate copy, it is a good design. And probably 20 years newer than mine.

    On the Z-bracket and belt cover, it would appear that it is attached to the movable part of the countershaft. Which probably wasn't a good idea. The fixed part of the original change gear guard mounting bracket is in your third photo, front row to the left of the tumbler.

    It would appear, then, that the nameplate on the bed goes to the bed. There is a small chance that the serial number might be of some use. You will find it, sometimes with prefix letter or letters, stamped into the top of the front way at the right (tailstock) end. At the right end of the rear row of your fourth photo is what might be the original gear guard (from before the addition of the QCGB). I can't tell from your photos whether or not the newer gear guard is 10-1504B or not. But if so, I don't see in any of your photos 10-1504T (which covers the left end of the spindle and part of the tumbler. If you go to DOWNLOADS, drill down to the Altas manuals and get "Atlas Lathe 10F Series Parts 10L-6 Rev5.PDF", on file page 10 you will see your version of the 10" QCGB. It shows what should be there.

    The number that you would find inside the headstock casting is almost certainly 10A-2B, common to all 10F's.
     
  13. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks again.

    I'll keep the belt guard comments in mind and change it as needed.

    I have a borescope at the hangar I will try to remember to bring home today. should be able to see the casting number with that.

    I hooked up the motor and ran the countershaft, back gear and spindle. Surprisingly quiet (based on 'noisy' comments here and on MrPetes vids) but maybe its just a matter of lower RPM I happen to have the belts in.
    I have the threading gears removed (because there are some discrepancies in the QCGB installation) so did not get to hear that.

    FIRST SHOW STOPPER.
    The motor is bleeding voltage. Of course it is a non polarized plug as was common in the day. Plug it in one way and I have voltage on the lathe frame while the lathe is not running. Flip over the plug and then the voltage on the lathe is evident with the motor running. I took the motor apart and as expected the wire insulation is in less than optimum condition. Measuring the leak gives roughly 46 ish volts. I can't see much wrong with the lacquer on the winding wires though. I have started looking for a replacement motor (new) but I see frame numbers have changed a lot. I can't find any reference to a 118C frame motor. I've measured and looked on the web a bit only to realize an adapter plate is a certainty.

    There must have been others in this situation before. Anyone care to comment on replacement motor selection?
     
  14. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    My better half was working today so I had the afternoon to keep working on the lathe.

    I fully disassembled the motor and did a detailed cleaning first. The bearings were chock full of baked grease and of course there was black sticky dust all over as one would expect on any old motor. The bearings came clean and felt good so they were regreased and used. Bearing size 202SF if anyone cares. I wrapped all the old stator and capacitor wires with high temp fiberglass electrical tape in the hopes that would fix the electrical leaking problem. Reassembled. Ran smooth and quiet but still have the electrical problem. As mentioned previously, depending on the orientation of the 2 wire plug, I would have 110V on the frame either while it was running or while it was off. Not both.

    I decided to use a workaround rather than go the motor replacement route. I replaced the power cord with 3 prong plug to make it a one way only plug into the wall outlet. I chose the wiring orientation to fix the 110V on the frame while running but leave the 110v on the frame while off problem. To deal with that, I then replaced the single pole motor switch (breaks only one of the two lines going to the motor) with a double pole switch that breaks both lines going to the motor. This fixes the 110V on the motor frame while"off" problem.

    Sooo.... it worked and then I got 'antsy' to cut some metal. :)

    I chucked up a tiny rod of aluminum and made a few cuts. Had to tighten a few things I overlooked but so far so good.

    I still have some work to do on the gear train. I want to PM the QCGB and I have a descrepancy with the FWD/REV tumbler gears. Specifically the FWD/REV gears are not lining up or engaging like they should because the tumbler arm mount (the piece that has the FWD/OFF/REV holes is not right ). The tumbler arm pivot point is too far away from the spindle. Secondarily, there is something screwy with the bearing stud that occupies the pivot point. The male thread is too small for the thread in the tumbler arm mount. The PO epoxied a smaller thread nut on the back side of the mount. Fine, but Atlas did not plan on room for that nut so it is pushing a lot of stuff out of alignment. What size thread is supposed to be on that? Need to determing whether I am looking at a 50 year old manufacturing error by Atlas or a jury rig by a PO that did not have the right parts.

    I know the above needs pics but I'm bushed. Maybe later.

    Happy day overall.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  15. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Attached are a couple of photos. One is of the tumbler mount that I complained about in the message above. I am looking for feedback from other ATLAS QC10 owners to tell me which part is wrong, the mount or the stud? Stud is 3/8"-16. Mount has a 1/2"-13 tapped hole with a 3/8"-16 thin nut epoxied to the back of the mount. Currently the stud is only engaging the epoxied nut. I suspect the mount plate is wrong. Please confirm.

    The other pic is of a belt guard built by a PO that Robert and I discussed earlier in the thread. I assembled it today and actually it is fine as it is. The guard is 100% cantilevered off the moving part of the jackshaft pivot assy. That keeps it centered on the big pulley. The bottom part that covers the motor pulley moves a little, when the belt is loosened, in relation to motor centerline but not enough to cause any issue. I'll leave it like it is.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  16. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK. In retrospect, it seems obvious but at the time that I was originally looking at it, for some reason it didn't register that the large 2-step pulley that it was guarding also moved. Makes sense now.
     
  17. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    On the tapped hole in the 10-1502 Hanger, I am pretty sure that it should be 3/8"-16. Call Clausing and ask them whether they have the drawing on 10-1502. If they do and don't have the part, ask them to email you the drawing. If they do have the part, they will not send you the drawing but should be willing to look at the drawing and tell you what the thread is. If they have neither the part nor the drawing, then repeat for the 10-1547 Stud.

    Assuming that it should be 3/8", to repair it get a piece of 1018 or 12L14 (machines better) 1/2" diameter and thread about an inch of it 1.2-13. Before cutting it off to a length equal to the thickness of the Hanger plus the thickness of the jam nut, drill and tap it 3/8"-16. Cut it off and dry fit it first to be sure that it works and that the length is OK. Once you're satisfied with it, stud lock it and the jam nut to the hanger.

    If you haven't found them yet, both the parts manual and the operating manual for the 1500 (and the 6800) are in DOWNLOADS. You will notice that the tapped hole is not even shown on the 10-1502 in the parts manual. If you get the drawing of the 10-1502, upload it here into the folder/category in DOWNLOADS for Atlas Lathe drawings, and I'll fix the hanger drawing.
     
  18. schor

    schor Canada Active Member Active Member

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    Yes it should be 3/8-16. Here's mine and that is 3/8. Someone modified yours.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks Steve,
    I made a thread insert last night so I can stake that into the hanger when I get back home this weekend.
    I think the PO used a different stud too because the male thread sticks out well past the end of the casting (to engage the epoxied nut), not flush on the original casting like yours.

    I have an inquiry in to Clausing. I'll post anything useful that I get back.
     
  20. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Actually, the PPO probably did it and the PO didn't fix it. You can also buy staked thread repair inserts. Ace Hdw may sell them by the onesies.
     
  21. welderr

    welderr United States Iron Registered Member

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    Hey RZ I have a TH42 as well mine has the pic-o-matic gearbox , you did good, I inherited a bare lathe and have almost what you have in yours just in accessories. I took mine completely apart just to get the ancient dried grease out of all the nooks and crannies . Mine had the optional Furnas drum switch but was wired for 220 with Fwd only I have switched it to 110 and fwd and rev. Its on the side line for now as my commuter truck lost a head gasket and its sailing season but I will get back to it in the fall. TJ
     
  22. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Just an update on my continueing life with the Atlas including how it has already saved the day.

    Inspection and repair of the lathe:
    I spent yesterday fixing the reversing lever and its mount that I spoke about earlier in the thread. I made a 1/2-20 to 3/8-16 insert out of a 1/2" bolt and installed it in the oversized hole in the hanger. Staked it with a punch on both sides in multiple spots. As a corolary, I tore into the QC gearbox. Similar to what I have found elsewhere, cup pointed setscrews wreaked havoc with the shafts. I cleaned them up. A few were in positions that I could put a flat on the shaft with the mill. Others got a brass pellet under the screw. I learned that one of the QC gear change handles is bent. It made the change gears misallign. On inspection it was evident that a couple of machined washers could move the gears in a manner to line things up. I did that instead of attempting to bend the zamax lever. I think I disassembled and reassembled the gears and shafts about 4 or 5 times before I got it how I liked it. ;) Spent a lot of time remounting the gearbox, the banjo and the reversing gears. I was pleased to see that I could get all the gear meshes where they should be just by fiddling with the slop in the various mounting points of the gearbox and tumbler system. I did learn that a lot of noise can come from gears that are running too tightly together. Oh yeah, looks like all the bearings in the QCGB housing were replaced (assuming originals were oilites) with std bronze. Two were not drilled for oil holes. Obviously bad. Fixed that.

    The lathe makes its first contribution:
    After I was kinda' done with the QC gearbox, I started working on the left front 4WD hub of my tractor. I had ordered parts a few weeks ago. I rebuilt the right one a few years ago. I went like expected (read major pain in the ***) including the use of all my big hammers and such. The showstopper happened when I found a new bearing would not slide onto a new kingpost shaft like it should. A pair of mics told the story. The shaft was 0.0006" too big. The Atlas is not up to cutting that but about 30 minutes with some 400 grit sandpaper with the shaft in the chuck brought it down perfectly. Took my time and stopped to measure frequently.

    Lastly ... and this is for Robert. After all the lathe running today I noticed the front spindle dust seal was loose. I took off the chuck and removed the seal to check it out and reinstall. While in there, lo and behold was a dated Timken bearing outer race. 11-30-1945. Not sure what to make of the POs claim that the bearings were replaced.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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  23. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Bill,

    Thanks. But first, I don't have your machine in the database. This thread started out with you inquiring as to whether the asking price was reasonable. After you decided to buy it and later took possession, we never got back to your writing it up in the Serial Number thread at the top of the forum. And second, because of the bed swap, the serial number doesn't go with the bearing date. So if you want to write it up, I'll put it in the database. But the date won't help date machines that we don't have the bearing dates on.

    On the PO's claim to have replaced the bearings, perhaps he only replaced the cones. Which incidentally, isn't a good idea in general.
     
  24. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Right on both counts of course. It would not bother me if a moderator could change the title to something like Atlas QC10 purchase and rework or similar. I'd kinda like to keep info on this machine in one thread and the title no longer applies.

    Could even use the title Atlas Frankenstein :) since it also describes the uselessness of going after serial numbers on this machine.
     
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  25. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Done. Actually, the term "Frankenstein" or "Frankenstein Lathe" usually means something a little more drastic than just replacing the bed or updating the machine by adding a QCGB or the later cross slide and compound upper swivel. As these are all things that were supported or encouraged by the factory. Most common example would be a 10D or earlier or a 101.07402 or earlier that has been essentially converted into a 10F or 101.07403 by changing the carriage assembly, headstock. lead screw and change gears to the final version. Depending upon what the original lathe started life as, in the extreme case, all that would be left would be the bed and legs. And maybe the tailstock and countershaft assembly. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  26. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    My compliments to the Clausing group.

    I called them yesterday to inquire and order a few gears for the skirt. (Mitre gear for one since its key is just a sliver)
    Honestly, due to the age of these lathes, I expected to be treated like a red headed stepchild waiting for somebody to dust off the old books and then check stock.

    Could not have been further from my expectations.
    Service was courteous, knowledgable and immediate.

    "Well done" to Clausing.
     
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  27. schor

    schor Canada Active Member Active Member

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  28. rzbill

    rzbill United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks Steve, I think I saw that recently but have not explored it sufficiently.

    I took a 'staycation' this week for home hobbies like farming and bees and stuff. It includes playing with the lathe.

    Because of commentary here and by Tubalcain videos about Atlas feed being too course, a goal was to see how small a feed value I could get on the QC lathe with the application of the standard set of 10F (non-QC) change gears and a few others that came with the purchase.
    I looked at the Atlas10QCgearsetup download but some of those gears are not included in what I have on hand.

    SO, I laid the gears on the bench and messed about until I got the largest ratios I could mount on the banjo.
    Installed and turned the spindle 10 revs while measuring the carriage travel. Got ten thou movement or approx .001" per rev. !
    That surprised me so I did some gear math and it shows I should be at 0.00092"/rev. (I think).

    For posterity sake, this is the setup, listed in same format as the download:

    Feed 0.00092
    TPI ~1082
    Position A Near 24 Far 48
    Position B Near 54 Far 24
    Position D Near SS Far 52
    Compound 16
    Left Lever E
    Right Lever 9

    Used this to cut on a piece of mystery steel. Hot rolled I think. Lots of chatter and poor surface finish at first. Tightened the spindle bearings per the instructions (not enough preload) and that put surface finish in the ballpark but I think I can get even better with cutter improvement. The cutters I have are brazed insert cutters from India. Zero rake. I did some shimming in the QCTP to get a few degrees of rake. I tried my general purpose pedestal grinder but the wheel I have did not touch the carbide much at all. I think my next task is to get set up to sharpen and properly profile the bits. I saw a post here about using diamond coated dremel discs from Horror Fright. Probably try those since they are cheap. If they don't pan out I'll start looking for a small pedestal grinder for bits.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017

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