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Atlas 10F V42

Discussion in 'ATLAS, CRAFTSMAN & AA' started by timmeh, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    On Saturday, finally got around to putting the Atlas back on it's screw jacks after rearranging the workshop a while back.
    On Sunday, power was out for a while, musta got bored, i dunno....



    Now I'll have to clean up reassemble. While its apart, I'll make some changes, do a bit of fixxy and get some better photo's of some previous repairs/mods.

    Bit of history as I know it, purchased about 2011 from an elderly gent in Mandurah, W.A.
    Had suffered a major crash somewhere along the line, the change gear banjo has been repaired, the fwd/rev gearbox had quite a lot of bentism and the toolpost is now only a plinth with a 4way turret.
    So far, the motor has been replaced and a fwd/rev switch installed, new spindle made, fwd/rev gearbox straightened and some improvements applied, compound adapted from another lathe, along with quite a few other repairs and modifications.
    I'll try to remember them all.


    Already found something a little odd, Bolts/Holes for attaching feet to bed appeared to be 1/4"U.N. to me(Course for headstock end and fine for tailstock end).
    Closer inspection of the bolts says otherwise, with the course bolts measuring 6.75mm O.D. and the fine bolts at 6.7mm O.D.(1/4" is 6.35mm). The T.P.I. for the course bolts seems to match NC 20 but the T.P.I. for the fine bolts is nowhere near NF 28, maybe 26 T.P.I. not sure yet.
    Are these a special made by Atlas?
     

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    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  2. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Tim,

    I have no idea why anyone would have used coarse thread bolts on the headstock end and fine thread on the tailstock end. Unless it was wartime shortages. But my best guess is that the coarse threads are 1/4" BW or BSW (20 TPI) and the fine are 1/4" BSF (26 TPI). Why the diameter is a few thou over 0.250 I don't know. Can't be something like BA as 0BA diameter is 6MM and there is no fine and coarse. If you still have the bolts, check the width across the flats. BW bolt heads are larger than BSF which are larger than both UNF and UNC (which are the same). 1/4" BW hex head is 0.525" max. My 1943 Machinery's Handbook doesn't seem to list dimensions for BSF heads. There was once an A.S.M.E screw thread series with the #16 having an OD of 0.268. But the pitches listed are 22, 20, 18 and 16.
     
  3. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    O.K. Have done a bit more ground work, definitely "off the shelf" or mass produced bolts. Confirmed that coarse thread is 20tpi and fine thread is 26tpi. Diameters are, as near as i can determine with a .05mm dial vernier, course 6.77mm(somewhere in the vicinity of slightly on the high side of midway between .266" and .267") and fine 6.71mm(a bees butt hair over .264")
    The hex headed bolt is 7/16 AF. I have come across a few oddball threads/diameters/pitches on fasteners and various components. I suspect you may be on the right track with wartime shortages, short on standard stocks and all that's available is specials(fasteners) for military purposes perhaps?
    It's possible that these sizes won't show up on a standard thread chart.

    Bit of a bummer, if one has a problem the next size up is 5/16, not a lot of meat left there after that.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  4. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    7/16" across the flats of the hex head and 26 tpi and nominal 1/4"
    diameter doesn't match anything that I can find. All that I can suggest is that if you have all of the original bolts, use them. If the problem is that you don't have enough of them, you have four choices. Locate and purchase 1/4" hex head BSF for the fine thread and 1/4"-20 UNC hex head for the coarse. Make the missing ones. Drill out and tap for a larger available size. Drill out and tap for a larger helicoil for some nominal 1/4" or 6mm diameter size.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  5. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    I don't think 1/4" bolts would even take any tension in these holes, the coarse ones might tear the crests off. .014" to .016" is a bit much, no matter which way you might going on a fastener that size, i.e. clearance or interference.
    These fasteners are definitely mass produced and way to big for 1/4" threaded hole.

    One of the fine bolts here must not have been tapped right through(centre, at the end of the bed), has damaged the end of the bolt. A little troublesome coming out, more so going back in. It's in for now, but don't know how long for as I had run a 1/4" fine tap through the hole to clean up(OOPS) before checking sizes properly.
    Plenty of time yet to decide... fix one/fix all. Tis but a hiccup.

    Still, there is a lot to ponder. Why fine and coarse, why that way around(I would have thought vibration would have been more of an issue at the h/stock end)?

    Original plan was to fit some riser blocks between feet and chip tray/legs to give a little more clearance under the bed. Maybe modify the chip tray a bit to install a drain and catch can for oil and such.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2017
  6. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I've never actually had my hands on an Atlas 10". only on several of the 1/2" way 12". What is the minimum thickness of the material that the tapped holes go up through? And are the holes approximately centered in it? The smallest bolt whose tap drill would probably clean up the 20 and 26 TPI threads would be 5/16"-24 UNF or M8-1.0.

    Are the rest of the threaded fasteners on the machine all either UNC or UNF?

    One solution if the web is too thin for the size of tap drill that would clean up the holes would be to step over about 1/2 inch and drill entirely new holes.
     
  7. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    I believe so.
    That may be a little difficult. The pads at each hole and either side of the outer end hole are a bit over 1/2" I guess. Repositioning might be asking for more problems. Not out of the question to upsize the holes, just doesn't leave a lot of material left at the edge of the rectangular opening on feet or bed.
    I've managed to get it back together without modifying, will have to keep an eye on the damaged thread/hole. Thickness of material/length of thread around 1/2".
    IMG_20170716_161740 - Copy.jpg
     
  8. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    And if those are two of the holes in the bottom of the bed visible in the lower right corner of the photo, they don't appear to be centered in the sides of the bed. Unless the top of the bed is wider to the outside than the thickness of the side wall below it.
     
  9. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    The two holes at the 'inner' end of the feet would not have a problem, there is plenty of room. The outer holes break through right next to the vertical section of the bed casting. The hole at the tailstock end is the only one that's a bit iffy.
    The fine thread bolts are considerably longer than the others and longer than the thickness of the material(approx. 5/8") they are fitted to. The bolt/hole that has the issue hasn't been tapped far enough and the thread on the bolt is damaged.
    Upsizing is possible, but have to be careful, don't need to do it yet... thanks lucky stars...

    Anyway, on with the important stuff. Bit of panelbeating on the chip tray and... IMG_20170723_155628.jpg IMG_20170723_155649.jpg IMG_20170723_155719.jpg IMG_20170723_155953.jpg IMG_20170723_171905.jpg IMG_20170723_172253.jpg IMG_20170723_172324.jpg Turned out great, until I tried to press the centre for a drain hole, top and bottom dies weren't quite lined up. Bit of a mess, but still usable. Not going all out for coolant, just catching and reclaiming oil.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  10. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Almost forgot, the riser blocks are done too. Makes everything a little on the high side now so will have to make some shorter screw jacks. Much easier to clean up now.
    Started off with the access holes on the inside, found that it all fits together much better with holes on the outside. Done.
     

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  11. Mwmx54

    Mwmx54 United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Very nice work, I like the chip pan! Can we see more pics of your bending set up? Looks like a jack in the base of a hydro press? How did you bend the outside edges? And what gauge is that? I want one!!
     
  12. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    The "press" frame is actually a trolley (for something about the size of a 44 gallon drum) set on it's side. You can't see them in those pic's, but on the other side of the frame are some really serious casters, rated 200kg(440lbs) each IIRC.
    The pan came with the lathe, I didn't make it. I would say it's 0.5 mm(.020") thick, maybe less(not sure of gauge) galv sheet. Around 9/16" deep with a 1/8" wire bead rolled into the lip. Little rough around the edges, does the job.
    I've just tidied up the sides and a few minor dents with a little panelbeating. The setup with the frame was just to put some creases in it to stiffen it up and direct oil to the centre. Same "press" from the other side. IMG_20170723_171844.jpg 10 tonne bottle jack as ram.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  13. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Made a few modifications to the way wipers, hopefully will allow turning full 10.250" dia. without having to remove them.
    Yes, that's right, 10 + 1/4". I've started, quite some time ago now, on a fixed steady or steady rest, using an old disc rotor for the framework(pic's a bit later).
    Had to file a bit of material off the chuck side "legs" of the carriage to get toolpost in close enough for trepanning/boring. Should have about 7" capacity when finished.
    Also, some pic's of the tailstock spanner, loosely based on a flat ring spanner for an N.C. lathe I once used. Drill hole in suitably sized, spare socket. Bash in piece of bar. Bend bar.
    IMG_20170808_144718.jpg IMG_20170808_144922.jpg IMG_20170808_144129.jpg IMG_20170808_145941.jpg IMG_20170808_151408.jpg IMG_20170808_151425.jpg IMG_20170808_151852.jpg IMG_20170808_151740.jpg IMG_20170813_105307.jpg IMG_20170808_162205.jpg IMG_20170808_161859.jpg IMG_20170811_190235.jpg IMG_20170811_190403.jpg IMG_20170811_190437.jpg
     
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  14. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Can't seem to locate shots of the set up for the disc rotor steady. These are the finished ring(1+2), clamped to the base and then released from the chuck.
    The hub section of the rotor was treppanned and used for the 3 position grinder stand(3, top of the tube/post).
    The leftover ring was then bored as far as I figured prudent.

    And there ya go, last shot is facing the rotor. Stumbled on this one while retrieving a shot of the grinder stand.

    Will have to ponder how I went about this, been quite a while since I did it. Quick description is, face and treppan one side then the other, leaving the "ribs"? in between the rotor faces. Remove, to vice, hacksaw through "ribs". Back to lathe for clean up.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  15. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Another quick one, somewhere here recently, someone was looking at a repair/replacement for the leadscrew mitre gear.
    Copied and modified from "Sons of Invention"
    Brass bolt, turned and filed to fit. Also works as a sacrificial component. Tried and tested works well so far.

    Pulled off up to .020" deep cuts, facing rotor in previous post. Although, that was done using the deep reduction feed rate set(a bit under .oo15").
    116 tooth gear... salvaged out of an old printing press.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  16. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I can see how that would work. And a lot easier to make than broaching a keyway in the bore of the gear. I think, though, that I would use a Grade 1 steel bolt instead of brass.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  17. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Yes, much easier than just about any other method I could find.
    Did look at doing it with a steel bolt, but couldn't find one with the right sized shank(1/8" IIRC) and a decent sized head to trim down. So brass it was.

    Although it would not be that difficult to make one from scratch, it would need a shear point if done in steel I think, could do considerable damage if it didn't shear cleanly in a catastrophic situation.

    Another one for the "To do" pile.
     
  18. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I don't think that I agree about the shear point. The right lead screw bearing is already the shear point. And I would guess that (although knock on wood I've never had one) almost all crashes occur during turning or threading. During which the bevel gear is not involved.
     
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  19. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    I've seen it mentioned quite often and I think it is even stated in the atlas books that the leadscrew support bearing is intended to be a shear point.
    On my machine, the compound slide was missing(a plinth in it's place), the quadrant plate had been broken and repaired, a number of change gears also missing, the Fwd/Rev gearbox input journal was bent towards the bed and down(not enough to cause a crack, enough to make meshing of gears difficult), the top left hand end of the g/box has a crack 8/10 mm long from the corner where it attaches to the bed, the tongue for the half journal at the right hand end was also bent(end of the tongue was about 5mm away from where it should have been).
    Considering where I am, if the support bearing had broken, they would most likely have made a replacement. Not disputing that the bearing is the shear point, just suspect that in this case it didn't.
    Secondary shear point has gotta be a good thing if it prevents further damage I figure, because I can't source parts nearby. I'd sooner have to make another "key" than have to knock up a support bearing. That reminds me of another job to do, a shear coupling on the left end of the leadscrew, like the later models.

    Anyway, on with the show.. Put a ball oiler in the mitre gear, and replaced all the rest.
    Checked fit of the steady rest after the wiper alterations, turned out spot on. Carriage needs a little more off to get in a bit closer.
    Some shots of my cross slide nut, the felt and keeper, the keeper mounting holes, and backlash adjustment,(I've not seen it done this way anywhere, in the manuals or otherwise{can anyone confirm or deny?}, was the only way i could see that helped with reducing backlash.

    Coming along nicely.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
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  20. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Good idea on the ball oiler. And on the cross feed screw/nut wiper. I'd suggest drilling and tapping an oil hole in line with the top of the felt. The threads would be for a plug screw to keep trash out. However, I don't understand your anti backlash comment.

    And yes, a slip clutch at the left end of the lead screw would be a good idea rather than depending upon the right thrust and support bearing to break.
     
  21. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Edit at end of my last post, re. Roberts query about "anti backlash".
     
  22. wa5cab

    wa5cab Downloads Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I don't see what was edited. The last photo shows the back side of the carriage and cross slide with a screwdriver doing something hidden.
     
  23. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Twisting the cross slide nut(flat blade screwdriver between nut and side of channel, applying very light pressure) in relation to the cross slide screw while tightening the mounting screw.http://www.hobby-machinist.com/attachments/img_20170819_212317-jpg.240618/
    I'll take a shot without the cross slide in place to clarify
     
  24. wa5cab

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    OK. When I saw the photo with the screw driver stuck up under the back of the cross slide, I assumed that you were showing tightening the wiper retainer screws. I would probably use a chisel. and show the round head screw being tightened. You're right. I haven't seen that method mentioned before. I do have to mention that it will wear quicker doing that. A longer lived fix would be a new nut. But it would be a way to get a little more usage out of a warn nut.
     
  25. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    I can see now where it would appear confusing.
    The cross slide nut could be turned either way to reduce backlash. Mine is rather bad(approx. .040" at the most worn area of the screw), now less than .010"(guessing by feel, not measured yet) after tilting nut in relation to the screw.
    Set the nut at the worst worn area of the screw, tightened just enough that it will move as it is wound along the screw towards a less worn area. Stop short of the least worn area and nip it up. Much better than it was.

    EDIT: Wear between nut and screw with nut set parallel to screw, at three points, equispaced along travel of cross slide from front to back is, .016", .022" and .018".
    With nut set as described above, measurements are, .002", .004" and .003". This will likely deteriorate somewhat, I will endeavour to post results later.
    Few of shots of what is happening in the earlier pictures, should be fine turning/tilting either way, i.e. left or right. Felt and keeper goes on afterwards.


    Then I have one for the recycling fanatics, pic #4 is comprised of the top of an electric kettle, parts of an old sprinkler and a bicycle component clamp(brakes or derailler, can't remember). Bit of panel beating, bit of bending, no machining of any sort.
    Screen on topside of chip tray is a sales sample of perforated plate scrounged from somewhere, may need some bending later.
    Oil catcher is on it's way.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  26. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  27. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    OK, all should be set on youtube now, posted two short vid's.

    Search "Atlas full swing2" for the disc rotor and "10F V42 in action" for the remake of turning 3.5" 4140, 145 rpm, .070" DOC @ around .003" feed(lost video was 110 ish RPM, .050" DOC @ .005" feed).

    Not ideal chip control, last time I had a go at higher feed the tool kept winding in by itself due to vibration. Still some vibration, probably due to running at near double recommended RPM.

    EDIT: Just went downthashed to tidy up a little after last nights test thrashing on the atlas, turns out the last cut was .110" DOC. Now I'm impressed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  28. timmeh

    timmeh Australia isdownthashed. Active Member

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    Have done a fair bit of repair/modification to the Fwd/Rev gearbox in the time that I have owned this lathe, it had suffered quite a lot of distortion after the crash(I suspect a fairly major one by a previous owner) and was difficult to engage.
    Pic 1 shows position of the crack at the left end.
    Pic 2 shows shimming points that have been adjusted after repair and the left journal that was bent down and toward the viewer.
    Pic 3 finished lower half journal I made from a piece of cast iron cut from parts of a scrap printing press. The marked point is approx. position where the tongue of the upper half journal was bent out to.
    Used a heat gun to do a bit of heat/shrink manipulation, not heat it up and throw a wet rag over the hot spot, apply heat and gentle pressure, remove heat, keep pressure on while it cools. Patience is key, took several hours over a few days to get it right. Nothing broke.
    All good now, engages easily, much quieter operation.
     

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