Aligning headstock

sigp2101

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Recently acquired Taig mini lathe. After initial setup and cleaning tried to turn 1" portion on the metal bar thick about 3/4 of an inch.
Wasn't using center support and bar was extending about 1.5 inch from a head. Made couple of light passes and measured.
Closer to the head: Set zero .0000
Further from the head: .0040

Is this kind of acceptable accuracy for these import machines or it has to be properly setup. There are hundreds of sites on the net and info about various improvements of these little machines but couldn't find any on aligning the head perfectly with bed rails.

THANKS
 
John,
I wouldnt have thought that .004" over an 1.5" was acceptable on any lathe.
I have never needed to align a headstock. They are usually pretty well located out of the factory. As they sit on an unworn part of the bed they dont normally develop errors. Maybe it got a knock in transit?

Cheers Phil
 
At that length, you shouldn't have any variation.

Sounds like time to adjust the headstock.

Does it have 4 bolts underneath for adjustment?
 
What kind of chuck were you using? It's very (and I mean, very) possible the piece was not straight in the chuck. That will do it every time. Center a piece and keep the dial indicator (DI) say, 1" from the jaws then, move the carriage down in increments of an inch and you'll likely see the runout increase considerably... This means A) the entire headstock is cocked or B) (the more typical case) your chuck jaws are not parallel. Even if you're using collets, they could be off. BTDT.

Ray
 
A 1" diameter bar 1.5 inches out from the chuck should not push off and give you taper, BUT, if the tool were not on center, say it was high, it would push it away and give you the results you are seeing. Do the test again. Turn your surface, then take an indicator and sweep the turned surface you just turned. If it indicates true when you sweep the length, then yes, you have a headstock alignment issue. If it indicates a taper, then you have a tooling issue, which could be the chuck not gripping tight enough to constrain the piece while turning it, allowing the end to push off, but it isn't really likely. It's also possible for that to happen if you didn't have enough material back in the chuck to engage the entire length of the jaws.

Another way to test this is to chuck up as large a diameter disk as you can get and face it down to the center. Again with an indicator, sweep from the outside edge towards the center. It will read zero all the way if your tooling made a good cut. But past the center of the disk (on the far side), we want to know if the indicator shows any deviation from plane. If the headstock is out of square with the ways/bed, it won't be flat across. It will be conical, either convex or concave. The way I described will show how much.


Of course, it's possible that the bed is parallel to the spindle, and yet the cross slide ways are not perpendicular, and that will show a dish or cone as well, but it isn't very likely to be the case. Either a straight turn with proper tools, or a flat face will tell you a lot.
 
were you turning steel ? and what depth per pass? were you using carbide or hss cutter?
a 1" piece of steel is bigger than your hollow spindle with 3/4 16 threads
my sherline hates steel.lol it does best with light cuts and positive rake hss tooling but it is very slow going
steve
 
What kind of chuck were you using? It's very (and I mean, very) possible the piece was not straight in the chuck. That will do it every time. Center a piece and keep the dial indicator (DI) say, 1" from the jaws then, move the carriage down in increments of an inch and you'll likely see the runout increase considerably... This means A) the entire headstock is cocked or B) (the more typical case) your chuck jaws are not parallel. Even if you're using collets, they could be off. BTDT.

Ray


Ray, I believe he means after he turns it. Then it should run just as true as the spindle bearings, and with no taper unless there is something wrong. Even a piece chucked crookedly can be trued up by turning. He's not talking about runout, he's talking about taper after he makes a cut.
 
Hi Tony -Happy Thanksgiving!

This is exactly my point. Example: How do you intentionally make a slightly tapered shaft? You intentionally put a horizontal offset in the tailstock. As the piece "wobbles" (so to speak) you will, at the TS end, start out with an interrupted cut which gradually becomes a continuous cut as you get closer to the head. Once you make enough passes, you no longer get an interrupted cut and presto, you have the tapered shaft. The same thing happens when the jaws are not parallel and it's holding the piece at an angle; likewise if the headstock is cocked. If you have a long workpiece and if you use a chuck and if the TS is off-center, you will get a taper at the TS end and closer to the chuck, you will get an inverse bulge. This is because the piece is bending/flexing as it rotates because the chuck jaws are holding it rigidly. It is precisely this reason that the only way to get a true shaft in a manual machine, it to spin between centers with a dog and avoid the chuck altogether. Centers have the desirable trait of being able to hold work in offset axis -and this is why centering holes are cut at 60 degrees -to allow a piece to be held firmly yet, rotate in a plane that's not perpendicular to the endpoints. When you use centers and if the axis is perfectly centered tip-to-tip, you get a perfect shaft (assuming your ways aren't crooked).

Chucks cause all kinds of problems which is why I use high-precision collets when the diameters are under 1-1/8 -and when real accuracy is needed, spin between centers. People like chucks because they're big pieces of metal and look cool but, when you want real accuracy, two simple pointy protrusions and an ugly dog are the way to go.

This case sounds like it could be either unparallel jaws or a cocked headstock. The first place I'd look is the jaws. For a piece just 3-4 inches long, with jaws not square and not center at the TS end, it's very easy to get a taper of 4-5 thou. [Side note: Tapers: I do this all the time because some boat props (the old brass ones) need a very slight taper toward one end. When the desired taper is extreme (more than 4-5 degrees) I use the taper attachment instead].

Also, if a toolbit is slightly high or slightly low by up to several thousandths, it has no perceptible impact on the diameter of the cut. Moving the bit in or out by some amount changes the diameter by 2x same amount but, moving it up or down has no (measurable) impact other than making the finish poor. If you do the geometry of a line that starts out perpendicular to the surface of a circle then, move the line up (so it's still horizontal but no longer perpendicular) by say 10 thou, the delta between the intersection point (the place where the cutting edge would contact) only changes by fractions of a hundred-thousandth -About 2-3 orders of magnitude (less) of what we can even measure.

It's possible though, I'm misreading the symptom but, I thought it was exactly as you mentioned. It's all good. We'll get it sorted out.

Ray


EDITS: First thing in the morning. Had to fix some broken sentences.

Ray, I believe he means after he turns it. Then it should run just as true as the spindle bearings, and with no taper unless there is something wrong. Even a piece chucked crookedly can be trued up by turning. He's not talking about runout, he's talking about taper after he makes a cut.
 
Lathe came with 5" 3 chuck jaws installed in head stock. When I put test bar in it and run DI across entire length of the bar did not show any un-parallelism wit carriage. I proceed with turning like I mentioned about as close as possible to the chuck for the length of 1", then measured with caliper only to discover reported difference. Measurement taken at the beginning and end of the cut multiple times.

Thanks for all of your inputs guys, I have to digest all the info and suggestions, and do some more tests. Some very good valid points and hints.
To answer some of your Qs:
I was doing .0025 cuts with HSS and carbide on both steel and brass bars.
Yes head stock have those 4 screws underneath connecting it with bed.
 
More questions... You said it's off by .004". Which end is wider, by the chuck or open end? Have you done this experiment more than once? Also, when you put a DI on the proof rod, where did you touch off? That is, along the top of the rod or along the side where a tool bit would normally make contact? Measuring along the top is not really meaningful in this particular case but it has significance in another area not relevant to your problem. With your proof rod centered, how much RO do you get when turning the chuck by hand? How long is your proof bar and will you please take RO measurements in 1" increments along the entire length of the proof bar? That will narrow it down to one of two things (or a nasty combination of both).

What make/model of test bar are you using and is it old and possibly abused?

BTW: 0.0025 is a pretty light cut. Do you get the same results with heavier cuts? Also, once this happens, have you tried rotating the shaft in the jaws by 120 degrees and re-doing the cut? All of these things give me clues.

Say, are the carriage jibs properly adjusted? I would not expect a lathe right from the manufacturer to be properly adjusted.


Ray
 
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