A bit of History of Taiwan built machines

The PM, and JET machines are a great example of getting what you pay for in machine tools and equipment. Matt asked for and also pays for better quality machines. Most of the Asian machines all have the same type of QC standards in place. If your HF for instance and only paying bottom dollar, then the overall quality of a production run will only meet that standard. If you are paying a premium price for machines the fit and finish on the entire production run will be better, up to and including nearly perfect machines. I would tend to call those machines at that level "Semi-flawless". So yes HF, Bolton, Busy Bee, Jet, Rong Fu and many others do indeed offer the same machine, but the finishing job and assembly quality are paid more for, by companies like Jet and PM. This means it is possible to get a good machine from HF and even a poorly made one from Jet, but the likely hood of that happening in both scenarios is getting much less. So sometimes it really is better to spend that extra few bucks and get some added insurance that the machine you buy will be semi flawless or better. The small shop machining movement has really started gaining a lot of momentum most notably in the last 5 years. Prior to that the machine prices were cheaper and so was the quality of the machine you received. Now the prices are up a bit, but the overall quality and longevity are being up in just about every circumstance with few exceptions.. So, Taiwanese, and Mainland Chinese machines are undergoing another round of product quality improvements and updates to improve the older less rigid designs. The engineers who are responsible for designing the parts have had a few years to practice there craft as well as the factory workers are getting better pay and better working conditions and that is reflected in the overall level of quality of the machines that arrive daily by the sea land container full. Yes Asia can and still occasionally does make a dud, but it is happening fewer and farther between as time goes on.

Bob
 
Rbeckett said:
The PM, and JET machines are a great example of getting what you pay for in machine tools and equipment. Matt asked for and also pays for better quality machines. Most of the Asian machines all have the same type of QC standards in place. If your HF for instance and only paying bottom dollar, then the overall quality of a production run will only meet that standard. If you are paying a premium price for machines the fit and finish on the entire production run will be better, up to and including nearly perfect machines. I would tend to call those machines at that level "Semi-flawless". So yes HF, Bolton, Busy Bee, Jet, Rong Fu and many others do indeed offer the same machine, but the finishing job and assembly quality are paid more for, by companies like Jet and PM. This means it is possible to get a good machine from HF and even a poorly made one from Jet, but the likely hood of that happening in both scenarios is getting much less. So sometimes it really is better to spend that extra few bucks and get some added insurance that the machine you buy will be semi flawless or better. The small shop machining movement has really started gaining a lot of momentum most notably in the last 5 years. Prior to that the machine prices were cheaper and so was the quality of the machine you received. Now the prices are up a bit, but the overall quality and longevity are being up in just about every circumstance with few exceptions.. So, Taiwanese, and Mainland Chinese machines are undergoing another round of product quality improvements and updates to improve the older less rigid designs. The engineers who are responsible for designing the parts have had a few years to practice there craft as well as the factory workers are getting better pay and better working conditions and that is reflected in the overall level of quality of the machines that arrive daily by the sea land container full. Yes Asia can and still occasionally does make a dud, but it is happening fewer and farther between as time goes on.

Bob
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Bob you and Ray talk about Matt, who are you guys talking about? Many of the new readers may have no idea who Matt is. Please tell us. Thanks, Rich
 
Richard King said:
A bit of History of Taiwan built machines. .

I see in the South Bend forum they are talking about Taiwan build machines and I thought this may give you a new prospective.

Taiwan machines were once know as "Disposable" machines because the new machines were very accurate for about a year of production use and then lost accuracy and were scrapped or sold. They were so cheap you could spend less on a new one then getting it rebuilt. I saw this as a local company in the early 80's at SIFCO who bought a Kent Grinder and it looked great, was easy to run and very accurate for about a year and they sold it and bought a new one.

In 1984, the President of Kent MR. C. S . Lu and then a senior member of TAMI the Taiwanese Association of Machinery Industry and a Director of CMD the predecessor of PMC (Precision Machine Tool Research Center) the Taiwan Machine Tool Inspectors, similar to the Japanese JIS and ASME here in the USA. Mr Lu told me that when the Japanese engineers came to Taiwan to help set up some factories they showed them to scrape 5 to 10 points per inch (PPI) with about 10% contact of the points (POP). As the Japanese didn't want to teach them all the secrets or how to scrape, so the Taiwanese could not build better machines then they built. This conversation happened in his office after he hired me to come Taiwan and teach scraping.

I spent 6 weeks back then teaching at 3 factories where they for the first time brought employees of several machine builders together to learn as a team to help build-up the Taiwanese skill level to compete with the Japanese. I also lectured to engineers and taught machine assemblers basically the same class I teach today here in the USA to you. CMD brought me back in 1985 and 1987 where I worked as a process engineer and we toured factories and trying to show them better ways to build machines. Some of my friends also went there to teach classes. Bill Johnson taught Fanuc controls, Andrew Devitt taught how to use Moglice, Don Martin of Lion Precision who taught spindle assembly and testing,

As time went on the Taiwan machines began to lose that reputation of disposable machines. I also went back in 2009, 2010 and 2011 to teach the next generation of scrapers, also the engineers and even had a week of teaching several of the Presidents and managers of machine tool builders who had always wanted to know how to scrape. In 2009 I was presented an award from TAMI which I am very proud of. Shown below.

A friend of mine up here in Minnesota over the last 3 years has purchased new CNC machine tools made in Japan and Taiwan. He has done tests and he has found the Taiwanese machines outclass the Japanese made machines. If you are considering buying a new machine I would say you may pay more for a Taiwanese machine then other Asian made machines, but it will be worth it to you. I also love seeing you buy the used machine tools that were made in Europe and here in the USA I really love seeing how our members of Hobby Machinist rebuilt their machines making them look like jewels. I know some of you may think I am blowing my own horn here, but you can say that just about anyone who tells about the history they have lived through.
The pic's are the award, me receiving it, a Taiwanese newspaper article of the training and PMC in Taichung Taiwan where I taught my classes.

View attachment 57064View attachment 57065View attachment 57066View attachment 57067View attachment 57068It sounds like I will be going back to Taiwan this October where PMC has arranged a reunion of my students. I hope some of my USA and European students can attend too. What an emotional time that would be!
Rich
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Thats awesome Richard..... Congrats to you.
 
"I can remember when I was a kid people called radios and machines made in Japan were Japanese junk...."

Amen brother. I'm 61 years old and remember well when "Made in Japan" was a running joke. Cars (remember Datsuns), radios, most cameras....all cheap and mostly worthless. That all started to change in the late sixties as I recall. Quality improved exponentially and Japanese exports were everywhere. This all seemed to peak in the late 80's as the Japanese economy tapered off.

I own a Taiwanese mill and horizontal band saw. These are Grizzly imports and probably not the top tier quality wise but suit my needs perfectly (home hobbyist).

I have some small Chinese power tools...sander, 1/2 drill...all HF...and, yes, these are junk. Having said that, I have no doubt that the Chinese could produce the highest quality items on the planet if that was their business model but so far cheap junk (produced by a cheap labor force with few government or environmental restrictions) seems to be working for 'em.
 
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