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1943 Monarch 10EE S/N 17646-Retrofit and Repair

Ulma Doctor

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#1
I'm finally in the Monarch Club, solely due to the good graces from a fellow member TAWP TOOL.
he offered me the lathe with goodies involved and even supplied the muscle to comealong the beast onto the trailer!
one heck of a good man in my book!

from the bottom of my heart,thank you!!!

May i introduce you all to Mildred, my Monarch 10EE

here is a shot after returning from TAWP HQ , with Mildred still loaded up
IMG_2810.JPG

IMG_2812.JPG
after unloading, she rests before major reconstructive surgery,

IMG_2813.JPG


here is a picture of the intricate drive system

FullSizeRender_4.jpg



here is what i know about the patient...
Monarch 10EE Former USN Lathe 00134
3200#lbs weight
12.5" Swing 20" between centers
V Belt Driven, multi reduction
Unknown motor and drive system
has not run in years.


The Doctor is about to operate...:grin big:

afraid of system failure i decided to remove the unknow drive system.
the plan is upgrade to a Baldor 5 hp 3phase 230v motor and an inexpensive chinese vfd(that was included with the lathe to boot!!)
but i had to get the old drive out to do the retrofit.

it isn't at first apparent by looking at the photo below,
but there is less than 1/8" between this previously retrofitted motor and the crudely cut out clearance in the frame.
it may have vibrated the lathe a bit during operation if the motor touched the frame.

IMG_2822.JPG

in the picture below is the speed selector, by varying the position you can change the motor speed
i'm not sure how it worked, but apparently it did at one time.

IMG_2821.JPG
there was lots of room near the headstock drive end, but the motor is about 15" in diameter and 22" long with the integral gearbox

IMG_2819.JPG IMG_2817.JPG
IMG_2816.JPG

the previous retrofit encountered some problems, there were only 3 bolts present in the 4 motor hold down threaded holes.
i surmise the slight misalignment of the motor kept the motor from rubbing full time on the frame of the lathe


i unbolted the motor and slid the belts off and the slid the motor out onto an awaiting pallet jack!

IMG_2823.JPG

i was finally able to finally identify the motor!
IMG_2826.jpg

i now could bring the drive out and try to test the 300+# beast!!

IMG_2824.JPG

i didn't want to jinx the first run by trying to make a video of it running :distrust:
but here is a video of the second run!!!
(don't try this at home boys and girls!!!!!)



there is more fun to be had, lots to do!
more to come :grin:
thanks for reading!
 
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Ulma Doctor

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#3
Mike,
Sounds like you will be busy for awhile
Hi nez!
i hope to have a pulse from the patient soon!
if i'm messing with a project, it usually keeps me out of trouble!!! (or gets me into trouble :anon:)
 

mikey

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#5
Wow, congrats, Mike! You're living the dream but this makes it what, 9 lathes? You have the disease really bad!!

Can't wait to see your patient up and running.
 

f350ca

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#7
Congratulations on your new family member. Keep posting.
Did a quick search on Type TLK motors, were they a universal motor? Quite a beast. Could the gearbox be utilized for 3 ranges with the VFD? Probably not necessary with 5 HP though.
Great to see kids with new toys.

Greg
 

Doubleeboy

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#8
MG lathes are not that difficult to fix, Wards Leonard drives were used in lots of elevators, keep it original. The Moarch board at PM is your got to resource for experience of those who have been down this path before you.
 

chips&more

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#10
Your nose is going to be too high in the air for you to see straight ahead. You will need to walk backwards to see where you are going:acne:.
 
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Ulma Doctor

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#11
Thank you very much guys for your support and kind words.
i really appreciate it!!!
thank you all!
 

Doubleeboy

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#12
Wow Nice Score!
It might be one of the early ones with a hydraulic drive? lots of info here: http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/page2.html
Its a motor generator machine, The Sundstrom machines that were fluid drive look dramatically different and were not built as late at 1943, there span was very short maybe just a couple years. Got to love the looks of those round dial machines. Just in case you haven't gotten this far yet a MG machine has a AC motor driving a generator which then drives the DC motor. Its the DC motor and its tremendous touque that makes these machines so marvelous. Take out the DC drive and you likely will be left with a sad rememberance of what once was. Ratheon in Cali would only buy MG machines, said they were the best for maintenance, as of early 2000s they still had a boatload of em. Lot of MG enthusiasts on the PM board, Russ is a wealth of knowledge on em, he has had more than one.
 

Karl_T

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#13
I have an almost identical machine.

That jack shaft arrangement does not look original to me. My machine had a 1:1 drive for high gear and then a 6:1 reduction for back gear. Your back gear looks about the same as mine.

I kept the back gear and mounted it to a 5hp 3 phase motor and VFD. the lathe has run this way for nearly 20 years now without any trouble at all. BTW, VFDs were EXPENSIVE back then.

Once you are done, you won't be using the other lathes for any job that fits in the 10EE. The machine is Soooo much nicer its just plain painful to use anything else.
 

4gsr

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#14
How about another film strip with the brush access covers open? :cool 2:And push it outside the door when the trick o treaters come by and turn it on. That arching would light up the neighborhood. Bad to look at, too!

Nice find Mike!
 

Ulma Doctor

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#15
That is quite a motor. Congratulations Mike. !
Thank you Jim,
i agree, it's one heck of a creation!

Wow, congrats, Mike! You're living the dream but this makes it what, 9 lathes? You have the disease really bad!!
Can't wait to see your patient up and running.
Thank you Mikey,
yes sir, i got the itch real bad.
i have come to the conclusion that i'm going to be selling off some equipment soon!
i'll be sure to keep updates as they happen!

Wow Nice Score!
It might be one of the early ones with a hydraulic drive? lots of info here: http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/page2.html
thank you very much Eddye,
i believe the lathe originally had the DC drive and was swapped out later for the universal motor.
thank you for the link, lathes UK is an excellent resource.

Congratulations on your new family member. Keep posting.
Did a quick search on Type TLK motors, were they a universal motor? Quite a beast. Could the gearbox be utilized for 3 ranges with the VFD? Probably not necessary with 5 HP though.
Great to see kids with new toys.
Greg
Thanks Greg, it didn't give a dc rating, but it may run on DC
you are 100% correct the motor assembly weighs a ton!
the motor is single phase, possibly a VFD could run the motor but i'm not going to reinstall the motor

MG lathes are not that difficult to fix, Wards Leonard drives were used in lots of elevators, keep it original. The Moarch board at PM is your got to resource for experience of those who have been down this path before you.
Thank you once again Doubleeboy, i'll be sure to check PM out.

Nice. Just NICE!!!
Jealousy abounds from here!
Thanks Rgray, i love he look and can't stand to see her with a broken heart from sitting on the sidelines while other machines get to play!

Your nose is going to be too high in the air for you to see straight ahead. You will need to walk backwards to see where you are going:acne:.
Thanks Dave, i'm still on cloud 9!!!
i hope having a Monarch doesn't change me for the worse :grin:
you are welcome to come over anytime and fondle Mildred, if that's any kinda consolation :cool 2:
 
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Ulma Doctor

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#16
Its a motor generator machine, The Sundstrom machines that were fluid drive look dramatically different and were not built as late at 1943, there span was very short maybe just a couple years. Got to love the looks of those round dial machines. Just in case you haven't gotten this far yet a MG machine has a AC motor driving a generator which then drives the DC motor. Its the DC motor and its tremendous touque that makes these machines so marvelous. Take out the DC drive and you likely will be left with a sad rememberance of what once was. Ratheon in Cali would only buy MG machines, said they were the best for maintenance, as of early 2000s they still had a boatload of em. Lot of MG enthusiasts on the PM board, Russ is a wealth of knowledge on em, he has had more than one.
I'll be sure to look up their resources, thanks!
 

Ulma Doctor

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#17
I have an almost identical machine.
That jack shaft arrangement does not look original to me. My machine had a 1:1 drive for high gear and then a 6:1 reduction for back gear. Your back gear looks about the same as mine.
I kept the back gear and mounted it to a 5hp 3 phase motor and VFD. the lathe has run this way for nearly 20 years now without any trouble at all. BTW, VFDs were EXPENSIVE back then.
Once you are done, you won't be using the other lathes for any job that fits in the 10EE. The machine is Soooo much nicer its just plain painful to use anything else.
Hi Karl_T,
i'm looking forward to making some chips very soon!
i'm very interested in how you did the conversion on your lathe.
what size pulley did you end up putting on your 5hp motor?
What RPM motor did you use 1750 or 3450?
thanks for the info!!!

How about another film strip with the brush access covers open? :cool 2:And push it outside the door when the trick o treaters come by and turn it on. That arching would light up the neighborhood. Bad to look at, too!
Nice find Mike!
Hi Ken,
thank you!!!
i thought about making a video in the dark of the old motor running, it would light up the whole block no doubt!
after running the motor i noticed a lot of ozone in the air, it has a distinct smell.
 

Silverbullet

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#18
Very sought after lathe . Ill never have one but it would be great to have. The way there built is an was forever. Not like now made to die in a short period of time. Good luck great machine yes I'm jealous and envious , I'm bad sorry.
 

4gsr

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#19
A 10 EE is my dream machine!!! Unfortunately, A Sheldon is my dream machine now.
 

Karl_T

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#22
A pic is worth a 1000 words. I mounted a 5hp 1750 motor INSIDE the old 3hp DC motor. There a chain coupling where the old DC shaft was cut. i put the speed pot on the same speed control linkage, same with the forward off reverse swtiches. can not tell form the out side it has a rebuild. FWIW, I've run this machine up to 4500 RPM many times - a bit more than most say is safe for a 1750 motor 10EE a.jpg 10EE speed pot F R switches.jpg 10EE speed pot F R switches.jpg 10EE drive.jpg
 

Ulma Doctor

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#23
A pic is worth a 1000 words. I mounted a 5hp 1750 motor INSIDE the old 3hp DC motor. There a chain coupling where the old DC shaft was cut. i put the speed pot on the same speed control linkage, same with the forward off reverse swtiches. can not tell form the out side it has a rebuild. FWIW, I've run this machine up to 4500 RPM many times - a bit more than most say is safe for a 1750 motor
Thank you Karl,
very nice job! that was a very ingenious way to skin the cat!
i don't have the same DC motor in mine to copy the idea like you have it.
i do have a spare gearbox like you have pictured, but i may have to make/find an input shaft and then couple it to the motor.
i'd like to have a full function machine, but i doubt i will ever turn it to 4000 rpm
 

mksj

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#24
Very nice machine and what a score. As Karl and others have mentioned, a lot of information and very knowledgeable folks in some of the other forums, like PM. I have seen a number of 10EE discussions on motor/VFD replacement in different postings, in this case since all the control systems are removed, a VFD is the way to go. If using a single speed motor, what other have indicated is you need at least 7.5Hp and possible 10Hp; with the back gear, then 5Hp works well. If you have/use the back gear, then there is information/postings on different ways of mating it to a new motor. I like what Karl did, haven't seen that one before. You might look for an inverter motor, the one below will go to 6000 RPM. A couple of months ago I saw a Marathon BlackMax 5Hp going for $150, it was a steal. You may be able to work on different shippers to get the cost down, these motors are heavy. Otherwise a standard inverter (VFD) rated 1750 RPM motor would max out at around 2700RPM (90Hz). A flange mount may be more ideal if you are going to make some interface plate between the motor and gearbox.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Baldor-Rel...P-230-460V-1760RPM-3PH-IDNM3665T/182487935288
https://www.ebay.com/itm/M3665T-Bal...-TEFC-230-460-volt-3-phase-motor/152731002102

 

Karl_T

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#25
..., but i doubt i will ever turn it to 4000 rpm
Needed 4500 RPM just yesterday. Have you ever seen a torx socket head screw with the little pin in the middle to prevent tampering? Well, I have a UPS power supply I'm adding more battery time to and needed this special torrx screw driver. These screw drivers have a hardened tip. So I mounted it in a collet and used a 1/16 carbide endmill to bore a tiny hole. Just try that in a lesser machine.
 

Ulma Doctor

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#26
Very nice machine and what a score. As Karl and others have mentioned, a lot of information and very knowledgeable folks in some of the other forums, like PM. I have seen a number of 10EE discussions on motor/VFD replacement in different postings, in this case since all the control systems are removed, a VFD is the way to go. If using a single speed motor, what other have indicated is you need at least 7.5Hp and possible 10Hp; with the back gear, then 5Hp works well. If you have/use the back gear, then there is information/postings on different ways of mating it to a new motor. I like what Karl did, haven't seen that one before. You might look for an inverter motor, the one below will go to 6000 RPM. A couple of months ago I saw a Marathon BlackMax 5Hp going for $150, it was a steal. You may be able to work on different shippers to get the cost down, these motors are heavy. Otherwise a standard inverter (VFD) rated 1750 RPM motor would max out at around 2700RPM (90Hz). A flange mount may be more ideal if you are going to make some interface plate between the motor and gearbox.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Baldor-Rel...P-230-460V-1760RPM-3PH-IDNM3665T/182487935288
https://www.ebay.com/itm/M3665T-Bal...-TEFC-230-460-volt-3-phase-motor/152731002102

[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much for the kind words and thank you for the additional information.
is the video of your creation?
the lathe sounds silky smooth!
 

mksj

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#27
No not my video, I had looked into the VFD conversion and the different factory drives for the 10EE in another forum. Kind of fascinating the drive technology and how well it worked back in the day. There are a lot of discussions as to keeping the factory drives vs. VFD conversion, but now that the tubes for the original drives are very scarce an expensive, other options are more attractive. A VFD conversion if done correctly, can be a very suitable alternative drive and keep these going. It is apparent that it is best to maintain the gear reduction drive for low speeds, otherwise you need a much larger drive motor. Probably optimal to go with an inverter/vector motor that can spin up to 6000 RPM, you can then do the final belt ratio to achieve the top end speed you are looking for, assume this would be around 4500 RPM. If you need any help with the VFD end let me know. Cool project, look forward to getting the beast up and running.
 

Ulma Doctor

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#28
Hi MKSJ,
thank you very much for the input.
i'm sure i'll be asking questions as the conversion goes on! :grin:
 

Ulma Doctor

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#29
I talked with @mksj and decided to got with an inverter rated motor to gain the most from my retrofit-
Thank you Mark for the suggestions and help!

after hunting ebay i was able to find a Brand New Westinghouse/Teco Max-PE 5 HP, 184T Frame,1745 RPM, 111#lb inverter motor for the retrofit
for less than $400.00 shipped :grin:

FullSizeRender_8.jpg

and the serial plate for those interested,

FullSizeRender_1_8.jpg

now that i have the power plant and the VFD,
i can start my plans on coupling the motor to the newer style gear box and mounting the gearbox.

plenty more to come!
 

Karl_T

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#30
NICE MOTOR!

I routinely spin 1725 motors up to 4000. My thinking, they are built the same as 3500 inside and any made in USA item has 15% design room. So, how fast can you spin this one? The 10EE is built to easily take 5000 for short runs. I'm thinking work backward to get your pulley sizes.

I assume you are keeping the back gear??

You do know you need to trade in one of your other lathes so you can afford a 2J collet system. And then trade in another to get an Accurite DRO with their best scales. You won't be using them anyway after the 10EE runs.
 
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