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[Lathe] 16" Von Wyck Machine Tool Co.

Discussion in 'VARIOUS OTHER BRANDS OF MACHINERY' started by jkucukov, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    Hello, I’m a new here and would like to learn more about my recent purchase, I bought a 16” Lathe made by Von Wyck Machine Tool Co. I found the lathe on a local listing and decided it was time for a new project, after seeing it in person it got me pretty excited :). Here is the lathe as we were off loading in to the shop. It was one heavy lathe, moved it with two 3 ton jacks, took the two of us nearly 3 hours.


    20170307_164752.jpg

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    Little bit about the lathe, it was built September 5th 1911, it came with a 6 speed Turner Unidrive and a 3hp Baldor single phase motor (1140 rpm). It came with original gear cover along with a spare bracket and couple extra gears (seen on last photo).

    So far the only bad is the drive gears are missing a few teeth, I plan on sourcing equivalent parts.

    The plan is to clean/paint the machine, bring it to working order and see what potential it has.

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    Can somebody tell me the purpose of these adjustment screws on top of the Babbitt bearings, how do you work them and how do you tell if the bearings need servicing?
    20170313_193306.jpg
    Also, can somebody tell me if the chuck and its 4 bolt adapter are screwed on the shaft? I’d like to replace the chuck with a Bison self-leveling jaw chuck and need to get an adapter plate, it would make my life easier if it the old chuck is mounted on a threaded back plate.
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    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
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  2. ghostdncr

    ghostdncr United States Active Member Active Member

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    What a great find! How deep into the restoration process are you planning to go? I like the lines of that lathe and if found to have reasonably sound mechanics, I might be inclined to do a total restoration on this one.

    Based solely on the OD of the chuck adapter, I would bet a few dollars that it's a screw on. I would unbolt the chuck and see if I could confirm that by looking through the spindle bore.

    Regarding those adjustment screws, I take it we're discussing the two slotted head (brass?) screws sitting inside the bearing cap bolts? I don't think I've encountered that arrangement before, with most all babbitt-bearing machines I've been around having some type of entry point for oil in this location. Either oil cups, a drip oiler, or something along these lines are what I'd expect to see here. My question would be that if these screws aren't somehow related to oiling the spindle bearings, then HOW does one keep oil supplied to those bearings? Interesting setup. Have you removed one of the screws to see what's on the other end, down in the hole, etc?
     
  3. Dutch

    Dutch United States Active User Active Member

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    Not a lot of surviving Von Wyck lathes around. The company was short lived because Emil Von Wyck
    committed suicide at his desk one day. But the lathes are very well made and were used primarily in
    the automotive manufacturing business.

    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/von-wyck-lathe-circa-1903.1877/

    I no long have this lathe in my possession but I lived with it for 30 years so maybe I can help. But...
    mine is an earlier 15x60 10 speed back-geared machine with change gears.

    You need to do some more (and better) photos showing the front of the carriage with all the controls.
    As well as the back gear set-up. You can lock the spindle by loosening the bolt on the bull gear and
    sliding it over and tightening it. You leave the back-gear lever in place and the spindle will be locked
    so you can unscrew the chuck. My spindle was 2 1/8x6. I have no idea if yours will be the same but
    I'd hazard a guess that it might be. You can use a pry bar against the partially open jaws on the chuck
    to unscrew it if its overly tight. Might take some muscle so a 3 foot pry bar wouldn't be too much.

    You have two stud gears: 24 and 48. In the photo of the gear train yours has the 48 tooth stud gear
    in place. For a finer feed you'll want the 24 tooth. Nice to have a quick-change gear box but I got
    very used to the change gears.

    My old green machine had ball bearing spindle bearings. Former owner said they were Ferguson tractor
    bearings.

    I count only 4 steps on your pullies. Mine had 5 so it was a 10 speed. Do some more photos!

    Dutch
     
  4. Dutch

    Dutch United States Active User Active Member

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    Pix of spindle. I had a set of 5NS collets adapted to the lathe. I made a collect adapter and had a 1.5" clutch collet holding
    a piece of brass. You can see the grease seal and grease leaking out around the spindle.

    apron1.jpg DSCF1529.JPG DSCF2157.JPG DSCF2157.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. FOMOGO

    FOMOGO United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Cool old lathe. Your broken gear teeth could be brazed up and re-cut. There are some videos out there on the process. Mike
     
  6. Dave Paine

    Dave Paine United States Active Member Active Member

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    Nice old lathe. It will be interesting to see this restored. You have a good project ahead.
     
  7. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    Thanks for all your reply guys, I appreciate it!

    Ghostdncr, I didn't dare to peak down those bras looking adjustment screws that sit on top of the Babbitt bearings before I knew more about them. They seem to have a spring loaded collar, I will take some better photos of them. The assembly spins free and I didn't notice any shaft play by hand. But for sure there has to be an oiling access.

    Dutch, thanks to you I joined the forum, I did see your post last week when I was doing research on the lathe before picking it up. If I didn't get your attention from this post I would have for sure sent you an email :)
    This weekend I will get some better photos of the carriage & controls, I plan on diving into it this weekend. How do you measure 2 1/8x6 spindle thread? Does the chuck unscrew counterclock wise?

    I do like the idea of having a leather belt coming from output shaft instead of having 4 V-belts.

    The lathe has some battle scars that it accumulated over the years on the controls that I hope are not major and did not affect the gearing behind it. Anything on the lathe was so heavy, I needed help just getting the tailstock of the bed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  8. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    I went to the shop today and attempted to remove the chuck, I tried following your steps but the bull gear keeps slipping out with the locking gear engaged while attempting to rotate the chuck ccw. I took some apron photos 20170316_182024.jpg 20170316_184347.jpg 20170316_182031.jpg
    20170316_184611.jpg
    I also figured out the brass fittings on top of bearing end caps were in fact spring loaded oil access ports, and it looks like the bearings are brass 20170316_182749.jpg 20170316_182800.jpg
    Could somebody tell me the oiling interval and the type of oil to use on these type of brass bearings?

    I dissasembled the tool post and noticed the indexing feature is missing, are those hard to come by? I cant seem to find a brand on this tool post.
    20170316_184453.jpg
    also the part that slides in has two alen screws to level the base in place, does this seem it would be secure, it seems like a tight lateral fit. 20170316_184501.jpg
     
  9. Dutch

    Dutch United States Active User Active Member

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    Use 30w motor oil. Every time you fire it up give all the oil ports a squirt. At this stage of the game in the life of that lathe you can do very little to hurt it.

    On the front of the apron you'll see small holes. Those are oil ports. Put the oil can nozzle up to those holes and let loose a couple pumps of the can. Your apron looks to be different only because yours has those feed adjustments in the lower left side. The round knurled knob in the center is the cone clutch. I took the apron off my lathe once because I had to cut a new keyway in the feed rod... all 8 feet of it. Wish I'd take pictures then. The cone clutch is cast iron about 8 inches in diameter. Ground surface and on mine was just beautiful finish. Not a flaw in the clutching surfaces.

    Your lathe has MULTIPLE means of adjusting the FEED rod DIRECTION. When working close to the chuck you can get in trouble faster than you can react. Trust me:). The feed rod direction control is that doo-dad that does from right to left and has detents. Just at the 8 o'clock position from the half-nut control on the right side. But depending on how you have the OTHER controls fixated you can run things backwards and when you shift the apron direction to the right the carriage will go LEFT.

    On the far left outboard spindle side where all the gears are.... That lever that goes up and down controls RIGHT and LEFT threading. In other words, it TOO controls the carriage direction when the half-nut is engaged. Threading is done off the leadscrew not the feed rod.

    Below that are two gears stacked together. The larger one is driven by those directional gears. The outside smaller one is your STUD gear. Reading your threading chart it shows FOUR stud gears: 24, 48, 72 and 80. Its pretty self explanatory that you'd install a certain stud gear to get the desired thread. You also adjust the quick-change gear box to the appropriate position. I don't see a threading dial??
     
  10. Dutch

    Dutch United States Active User Active Member

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    On your apron underneath the cross-slide control is a knob-like thing that pulls out and pushes in.

    That is the cross-slide power feed control. For it to work you have to loosen the clutch so the power goes from the feed rod to the cross-slide. The cone clutch controls only the carriage movement right or left on the bed. The DIRECTION control for the cross-slide is that same right-left control for the carriage but when the clutch is dis-engaged it controls the power feed direction of the cross-slide. (hope I got that right!).
     
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  11. Dutch

    Dutch United States Active User Active Member

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    This image shows where the threading dial is on the 15" lathe. It drives off the leadscrew and you absolutely have to have a threading dial to do threading. (except there is a way to thread without a threading dial but is more involved).

    My old Von Wyck had no dial increments on the compound rest. So I rigged up a dial indicator for that. And the cross-slide graduations weren't real accurate so that bar going across the top of the carriage has a dial indicator on it. Between those two indicators you could actually do some nice work with the old boy.
     

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  12. Dutch

    Dutch United States Active User Active Member

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    That hoakie looking carriage stop worked so good you'll end up making one. Use 3/4" square stock and some fine file fitting. Has an attachment for dial indicator and an adjustable stop. It'll keep the carriage from hitting the rotating chuck.
     

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  13. francist

    francist Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Is it just me, or is the centre section of the tool post T-nut markedly higher than the top surface of the compound slide? Might want to look at that.

    -frank
     
  14. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    Thanks Dutch for the detailed descriptions, I appreciate it.
    I'll try and take more photos of it this weekend when I tare into the apron.
    One thing I want to do is tare into the main bearings to asses the condition of the brass bearing wear, is there a torque rating for the main cap bolts? Also, is there a bearing tolerance that I need to check? I have plastigauge for engines that I could use, any suggestions there?

    There is a carriage stop on the machine at the left end, home made, its shown in one of the photos from above (left control levers), but yours looks way nice.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  15. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    If you see for the photo, the tool end from the tool post has never touched the compound slide, there are 2 Allan screws on the tool post base to level out the T base, but your are right it does protrude higher and the lateral fit is tight. I cant find any info on this tool post, I see that people are making their own, I would like to re-purpose this one if possible, any suggestions?
     
  16. ghostdncr

    ghostdncr United States Active Member Active Member

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    Other members may offer something better documented but on babbitt-bearing machines, I simply torque the bearing caps down incrementally as I'm turning the spindle by hand. If I start feeling resistance somewhere under 40 ft. lbs., I'll call that machine good to go. If I've got nothing by the time I reach 60, I'll chuck a substantial piece of round stock in the chuck with only a few inches sticking out, throw an indicator on it, and try to deflect it by lifting/pulling/pushing on the stock. Not an especially technical way of checking the bearings, but it does provide a fair idea of what you're dealing with.
     
  17. francist

    francist Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'm not positive how the indexing feature would work on that post -- shouldn't it just be a spring-loaded ball that engages a series of detents on the mating piece? My main concern was that the nut was standing very proud of the compound which in most cases is not a very stable set-up. Perhaps I am misreading how yours operates though.

    -frank
     
  18. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    thats really a game of feel and delicacy with the bearings, but i do understand the logic, thanks for sharing. Ive herad that some of these brass bearings were shimmed, same theory might apply.
     
  19. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    i would agree, i wouldnt expect two .25" alan leveling screws provide enough stability, i think i need to rethink this base, it might not work. The detent, like you said its probably spring loaded round wedge looking piece to fit the slot from the bottom of post.
     
  20. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    I tried to remove the chuck back plate from the spindle, it was a total failure no matter what we've tried, afraid that we might break something I decided to take another route. I took the bearing caps off to inspect the brass wear and removed the chuck from the backplate.

    20170317_225233.jpg
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    The bearings looked good for the age I taught, no deep gauges or significant wear.
    We removed the spindle with the back plate and pulleys from the lathe.

    Can somebody tell me how does one remove the spindle from the belt pulley system?
    Also, I couldn't tell from looking, is the bull gear pressed on the spindle?

    I'd like to get everything disassembled and cleaned up, I hope I didn't open a can of worms.

    I hope I can figure a way to remove the spindle from the back plate without damage.
     
  21. ghostdncr

    ghostdncr United States Active Member Active Member

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    I remember working on an ancient lathe nearly forty years ago that had a threaded-spindle chuck frozen in place. I'm thinking it was a big old LeBlond. The guy that was rebuilding the lathe made up an interesting arrangement to wrench the chuck free of the spindle.

    He took two pieces of 2" x 4" or 2" x 6" CRS and drilled and tapped two big bolts (5/8 or 3/4") in the steel pieces aligned edge to edge. Two washers were slipped between the blocks and the bolts were inserted and tightened. Then a hole was bored through about 1/4" bigger in diameter than the machine's spindle. The chuck was laid face down on the shop floor with the spindle pointing straight up and this "wrench" was bolted in place around the spindle and blocked up to be level and approximately centered. The washers were still in place as spacers between the two halves. A small pot of lead was melted and then poured into the gap between the wrench and the spindle and then everything was disassembled and the lead ring was cut into halves with a small piece of sharpened brass bar stock.

    You know that tough, sticky sap that runs out of pine and cedar trees? The old guy had a coffee can with a pretty good collection of the stuff. He heated some of that on a stick and smeared a little on the spindle and the bore of the wrench caps before popping the lead back in and reassembling the wrench onto the spindle without the washers separating the two halves. The bolts were then tightened until they smoked and then about a quarter turn past that that!

    The big 4-jaw chuck was clamped down onto another piece of thick wall tubing lying across its face. A couple of shop rags were wrapped around the spindle's journal areas and a larger pipe was slid up over it, with the pipe being probably 8-10' long. Another pipe was slid onto the 2 x 2" tube welded to the wrench's lower cap. With a man standing on each pipe about midways along their length, the old guy mounted the piece of tubing clamped into the chuck. It sounded like a .22 rifle firing when that chuck broke loose, or at least that's how I remember it.

    To help my rambling make sense, below are a couple of sketches I banged out with hopes of tying things together. First, how the wrench was configured and bolted to the spindle. Second, a combined overhead and side view, with the three football shapes representing the mens' positions while breaking the chuck free. I hope the Von Wyck doesn't require anything this aggressive but if it does...
     

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  22. kdecelles

    kdecelles Canada Iron Registered Member

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    It's about time someone posted anything on a Von Wyck. I too have a 16" Von Wyck (similar but different to yours) and the amount of pictures/information on these machines is extremely limited. In addition to your pictures there are probably on 2 or three other pictures that you can find via. Google/Bing.

    I'll post pictures of my beast soon. My machine was very well taken care of and the chuck spun off like butter. I can dislodge it easily by engaging the back gears and using a 2x4 in the chuck jaws.

    I have a 3 jaw Bison chuck on it now, perhaps I can answer questions re: the threaded spindle.

    Welcome.
     
  23. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    I've been meaning to post my progress for some time, I've been busy with other projects haven't had much time to work the lathe. Everything but the bed and the legs are disassembled. Ghostdancer, thank you for sharing the story, sound like I'd need to take it to the shop if I decide to change the chuck. Kdecelles, I have a 3 jaw self leveling Bison chuck myself, what thread does your Bison chuck adapter have (2-1/8"x6)? Did you cut the adapter thread yourself? Let us know where you post your photos.
    20170401_193315.jpg
    Under the chipping paint on the left rail its showing signs of hand scraping.
    20170401_193325.jpg
    The gears on the back of the apron looked flawless.
    20170401_193359.jpg

    The Carriage turning wheel has seen better days.
    20170401_193413.jpg
     
  24. Silverbullet

    Silverbullet Active Member Active Member

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    First welcome to the site, your lathe looks to be in very good condition for its age and rarity. If you can document as much as you can for future use. That's what makes buying a lathe like yours tho badged not hardly any info out there about them. I think if you apply plenty of penetrating oil every few days. Then even a little heat with a propane torch will help the metal to expand and contract it may take several days but it will help . Your gears can be brazed up and recut much cheaper then buying them. I'd bet there 14.5 degree gears the standard . Pending on the diameter which cutter you need.
    I'm in the same fix on gears for a 20" Rockwell delta drill press the table and head lift crank gears missing teeth.
    Glad you decided to save her from scrappers. I hate good items being thrown away , when I grew up we fixed things and repurposed items till totally useless then thrown out.
     
  25. kdecelles

    kdecelles Canada Iron Registered Member

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    I'm going to attempt posting some pics of my von wyck, apologies if this doesn't work[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  26. kdecelles

    kdecelles Canada Iron Registered Member

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    And the rest[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  27. kdecelles

    kdecelles Canada Iron Registered Member

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    A couple of the gear shrouds are removed for cleanup/repaint


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  28. jkucukov

    jkucukov United States Iron Registered Member

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    This is what i get for not logging in for a month, i dont get to see the photos :(
     
  29. francist

    francist Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It's not you, it's the tap-a-talk thing. The pictures often show as "the dreaded red X". Sometimes if you click the "reply" button on the far right of the thread box you'll be able to see the pictures in your reply, but it doesn't always work.

    -frank
     
  30. francist

    francist Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Tried to copy and post them but it didn't work -- sorry.

    -frank
     

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